Courageous Conversations: Navigating Tough Talks with Confidence and Skill

0:00 The topics and opinions express in the following show are solely those of the hosts and their guests and not those of W FOURCY Radio. It's employees are affiliates. We make no recommendations or endorsements for radio show programs, services, or products mentioned on air or on our web. No liability, explicit or implied shall be extended to W FOURCY Radio or its employees are affiliates. Any questions or comments should be directed to those show hosts. Thank you for choosing W FOURCY Radio. What's Working on Purpose? Anyway? Each week we ponder the answer to this question. People ache for meaning and purpose at work, to contribute their talents passionately and know their lives really matter. They crave being part of an organization that inspires them and helps them grow into realizing their highest potential.

0:45 Business can be such a force for good in the world, elevating humanity. In our program, we provide guidance and inspiration to help usher in this world we all want Working on Purpose. Now, here's your host, Doctor Relise Cortez. Welcome back to the Working on Purpose Program. Thanks you again this week. Great to have you. This show has been brought to you with passion and price since February of twenty fifteen. I'm your host, Doctor Release Cortes. If we've not met yet, you don't know me. I'm an organizational psychologist and logo therapist, speaker and author, and my team and I at Gusto now help companies to enliven and fortify their operations by articulating their purpose and building inspirational leaders and cultures activated by meaning and purpose to turn those companies from a flatline EKG to a vibrant destination workplace. There people are intrinsically motivated to perform at their best, can grow to their fuller potential, and are committed to stay in dynamic and deliver on the company's mission. You can learn more about us and how we can work together at Gusto dashnow dot com or my personal website at least Coortes dot com. Now getting into today's program we have with us today Todd Davis. He's a senior consultant and thought leader at Franklin Covey with over thirty five years of experience in human resources, talent development, and executive recruiting. Todd spent twenty seven years as Chief People Officer at the company, where he was responsible for the global development in over forty offices, reaching one hundred and sixty countries. Sounds amazing. Additionally, he authored and co authored books including Get Better fifteen Proven Practices to Build Effective Relationships at Work and Everyone Deserves a Great Manager. Yes they do. He joined

2:17 it today from Salt Lake City. Todd E. Hardy, Welcome to Working on Purpose. Thank you, thank you for having me. Appreciate that introduction. One quick correction, So I've been with Frank Kenny for twenty eight years. It was eighteen of those years that I was their chief people officer. Okay, thank you for that correction. I don't want the current chief people officer to say, hey, wait a minute, what are you doing. Yeah, already coaching on my space on my turf. Well, I'm really very happy to have you on, Todd. This is such an important topic, this idea of conflict, and as we get into it, I want to first start by talking and just learning why. You know, in order for us to be able to work on a topic like this, we have to have some connection to it and some passion around it. So I'm interested and why do you care about the topic of conflict and navigating through it and what's your anchor to this? Yeah, well, thank you for asking that.

3:07 You know, you mentioned one of the books I was honored to write on behalf of Franklin Covey Get Better Fifteen Proven practices to build effective relationships at work. And what I have learned throughout my career and particularly in the role of chief people officer, is that, as Jim Collins said, you know, you got to have the right people on the bus, and I totally agree with that, but it's actually in and not but and it's actually the nature of the relationship between those people that makes all the difference in a culture and a team, an organization and to the bottom line and so so relationships and I'm not just talking about being nice to each other, but really effective collaborative relationships are the key to successful cultures into successful business. I found that time and time again in my work. So so, while we want a lot of different opinions on the table so we can get to, you know, a great solution, we got to figure out now how to share those those different opinions and not just tolerate, but really welcome those different opinions so that we have all these pieces of the puzzle we could work with to create whatever it is we're going to create. Mm hmm. Yeah, and conflict kind of gets in the way of that unless we know how to navigate through it, right. So one of the things that I find intriguing, and I guess I'm not going to complain about this taught and maybe you probably don't either, that we weren't actually taught conflict navigation in elementary school, high school, you know. And why I'm not complaining is because both you and I address these kinds of issues that aren't taught very well in school. So we can't complain too much because it's our livelihood, right. But why is it

4:38 something like conflict navigation taught in high school or in elementary school? I think that is so interesting, And lots of people ask that. I asked that. I think, gosh, if this is such a fundamental piece to not just getting along in the world, but really making headway, why isn't it taught? You know, we teach debate. I was on a couple of debate teams, and debate is almost not the opposite of what we're trying to accomplish here. But it's like you know, how do I win? How do I get my point across versus? How can we collaboratively work together? And how can I you know, how can we communicate effectively and respect each other's opinions? And And there's an element of that in debate classes, but not much. And then communication classes that I think of. It's all about talking and getting my point across. It's not we don't we don't have classes on how to listen. And boy, is listening such a critical part of navigating through difficult conversations. So I'm with you, I'm I'm there's a part of me that's glad they don't teach it because that's what I do every day out on their own as a senior consultant. But it is. It is a really perplexing question. And we look at not to get into anything too far out, but we look at all of the controversy and the the anger in the world right now, and you just wonder if man, if navigating and showing respect and couraging consideration we're taught from a very early age, would we be at this place we're at all over the world. It's interesting you say that. Yeah, I'm co authoring a book called soulful healing, which

6:09 really also really speaks to the notion of being able to listen and empathetically connect with people. And part of what we're putting forth is this is what the world needs. So I totally think that's totally sick important to go where you just went to. So and I appreciate that because the show is listened to my people around the world, and I think that we do need to elevate our capacity to listen to each other, to be respectful to each other. And I certainly want to help champion that cost. So thank you for bringing that up. Very important, thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Well, so then when we think about this, what's interesting. I bet you you probably experienced this on a very regular, if not daily basis. When we even mentioned the word conflict, people can have a very visual reaction to it, right, And so let's talk about some of the common misconceptions about conflict.

6:58 Okay, Yeah, we hear the word conflict and we immediately think argument or fight, right, And and when when you think of the word conflict, if we think of, you know, differences of opinion or or challenging topic. I'm thinking of specifically to the to the course that I teach, and that we teach, how do we how do we begin to hold those conversations? What things we have to keep in mind? If we think of it as tension. Okay, that's because there's there's tension there, because there's emotion, there's something at stake, and tension the word we we tend to think of as a negative, but tension can actually, when harnessed, can be used for a good thing. Tension is is, in my experience, is a close cousin of passion or or an outcome of passion, something so strongly about. And boy, if we can get that on the table and harness that, then we can make some real progress. That's that's my I don't have the word doctor by my name like you do, but that's my take at it. Uh huh. I think that's really interesting. Yes, and I did see you know, I did take your your assessment. I think I came out as an appeaser, by the way. So anyway, so then your your course is your work. How are you helping people to address some of these misconceptions? Yeah, well, we talk about the tendency that human beings, most human beings have to avoid difficult conversations because we something's

8:31 at stake, right, And that's why these this tension of these emotions come up, because something's at stake. I dealt a lot with performance conversations and my chief people officeral role in coaching leaders and working directly with associates, and so you know, they had at stake their livelihood. I mean they're there, were they going to continue in their role? I had at stake my concern about the relationship. How are we going to And that's something I think most of us can relate to. We're going to prepare for a difficult conversation. We're worried about how the other person's to feel and what's going to be our relationship after and the feelings after that. And so if we can identify that, recognize that that, Look, the mindset shouldn't just be well, this is going to be painful, so I just got to get through it the best I can. But instead say, yeah, this is going to be difficult, but we both if we took look carefully what we both need out of this? You know what I need if I'm the one initiating a difficult conversation, what is it I need when I need your performance to improve?

9:26 Or I need us to get on the same page or whatever, And what do they need well, first and foremost, and again I'm going back to performance plans, which is a big area, or performance discussions, which is a big area of my background. The first thing I remember is they need respect. They need to feel respected to any one of us we're having When we're not the one initiating the conversation, we our brain automatically goes into defense mode, this fight or flight mode. And so I try and remember that, and coach leaders remember that to say, gosh, anything you can do to reduce and reduce that defensiveness up front is going to help them to really hear what you're saying. So that's that's kind of a first step.

10:07 But I think i've I think I've digressed off of your question. No, that's great, that's you're doing great. I was you did ask answer the question the way that I served it up. I think what's interesting when I think about that, You know, why why don't people go ahead and step into navigating conflict? Right? You know you mentioned it. Part of it is people are afraid of, you know, strong emotions coming out, and I can't deal with those strong, strong big emotions and how do I deal with that? Or don't feel like they have the skills to go into it, so just feel like, you know, it's I don't even want to go in there. So but you know, it's so interesting. I had doctor Raj Sosodia on my show a few weeks ago talking about his latest book, Awaken, and he talked about how he his co author wanted one of their other authors to be further down the list in the naming of the book, and and so Raj didn't want to bring that up with the author.

10:58 He avoided that conversation or potential conflict, and as he said, he outsourced it. And it didn't go well because then the other author came back to him and said, hey, what's the deal, what's the deal? And he said, I could have easily handled that if I would have just done it myself. Boy, I can so relate to that kind of a situation. I had a team member many years ago, really good person, and they did some things well, but they had they had a behavior that was really holding them back, and it was starting to be observed by other team members. And this is embarrassing, Doctor Cortez, because here I am the chief people officer. I'm going to coach the leaders had to do this, and yet I fell into this. Maybe it'll just go away, maybe the problem, maybe maybe somebody else'll address it. And this person reported to me and I, you know, I look back and laugh now, because I wasn't funny. It was. It was funny that I was avoiding. I was doing the very thing I was coaching leaders not to do. And after about it seems like this situation is about six months. I find that because another team ever came to me and said, hey, Todd, this is getting out ahead and you're looking bad. You know, the department's looking bad.

12:07 We don't get this addressed, and shame on me. But I went to the person and finally had this very awkward, difficult conversation, if not handle correctly, could feel like a personal attack. It wasn't a personal attack, but I can appreciate how they might feel that way. And yes they were upset, and yes they were offended, I'll say, and hurt. But what they were most hurt by are the six months that I had waited to have. It finally got to the heart of the issue. They they didn't necessarily agree, they saw the situation differently than idea as far as what they needed to change, but they also appreciated that they needed to make that change. But they came back to me and said, what was hardest to hear was that you had known this for six months. And so for six months I continued to do this thing that was alienating people and I didn't know it. And then I thought, shame on me. You're exactly right.

12:58 You know, we err on this side of being considerate. We talked about balancing courage and consideration. Many people, most people err on the side of being considerate because they're so thoughtful and concerned about the person's feelings, and yet one is really considerate, I mean being considerate. Was me to let this thing go on for six months when this person could have started to course correct that much earlier. Sorry, I have very long questions, to be very very long. You know, this is exactly the nature. Don't apologize for good good content to take that back not accepting that apology. All right, I err on the side of consideration. So okay, well I did. Just last night I went to an SMU Leadership Series talk and there was a woman who was I think the CEO of Selena's. She had been an executive for Excell for years, and he asked her, what's what what's your biggest regret in your career and she said just that, she said, not responding quickly enough to things that were important. Welcome to being human, right, So seems to be a common refrain. But so you showcase something that you know you wished had gone or you wanted to go you know better than it did at the time. Let's talk about a case study where effective conflict navigation led to some significant or positive outcomes. Whether it's an organization a company that'd be the ideal. Yeah, well, yeah, I've got some personal I mean it's in a business setting, one that I was personally involved with, where again a performance discussion. There was a very highly educated, very senior

14:31 person here at the organization I'm at Franklin Covey, and this person was continually passed over for some really cool opportunities and it was frustrating for them. And on paper, they had everything that it took in more to be selected for some of these really cool projects, and yet they weren't. And I wasn't directly supervising this person, but I was aware of them and aware of their strengths. And I started to observe and notice what I was assuming was getting in the way. And that was let me back up here when I when I wrote the book Get Better, I woke wrote about the things that those who are most influential in their in their leadership positions, whether they're a formal leader or not, what they do. And one of those things is they get their volume right. What I mean by that is our strengths. Any strength, when dialed up too high, starts to work against us. This person was the most the most detail oriented, organized person I had ever met.

15:28 I mean, who doesn't want that person on your team? Right? But that strength of this person's was dialed up so high that when things didn't go as planned, they couldn't adjust, They couldn't adapt, They were they were very ridge that way, and so people would work around that. They didn't want to have this person on their team because they'd rather take someone with less competency but more pleasant, quite frankly to work with. Yes, And I observed this from Afar, and I took a risk and went to this person when when one other situation came up, and again this person was passed over and I said to them, Hey, you didn't ask for my feedback. But we've known each other for a long time and I've been observing, and I think I can see what may be getting in a way, and I approached it that way, and I said, and I did say, let me tell you, and I'll call this person Deb. Her name wasn't Deb, but I'll say Deb, let me tell you. And I've been given feedback before. It stings, but it was helpful to know that the person giving it to me only had was only looking out for me. And I just want you to know my only intended sharing this with you is because I care about you and I want to see you wildly successful in your role and happy. And so I begin the conversation. I said, I have noticed some things big and little where you. You don't mean to, but you come across as abrupt, maybe some would say offensive. And she looked me really and we started talking about things that I wish showing her in even

17:00 simple examples of how she began an email with with, uh, you know, have you got the video product pretty yet? Instead of hey, at least how was your weekend? Hope things are going well? Would you mind? And this person was so senior and so educated that I assumed that they just knew to do things like that. And and this person was not. They weren't angry. They were hungry to learn those little things that might come so natural to you and me. And so we spent several different sessions coaching how to begin an email, how to when I was coaching this person, and I was quite surprised, but but then I realized, gosh, Todd, don't don't think that just because you're a certain way, everybody else is that certain way. And I'm not patting myself on the back. I'm just saying some things that come natural to me with empathy and consideration art art to natural to everybody. And so in that coaching session, this person really started to change, and I started hearing from other people. Wow, so on depth is what happened to deb And all of a sudden, opportunities started to open up. And I'm not taking credit for that. I'm just saying, share, don't be afraid of having those different conversations because while yes, it's going to be awkward and a little bit uncomfortable, or would be a lot uncomfortable initially, if your intent is there, and if you declare your intent and you make sure they know your intent, I'm convinced and you're sincere about

18:34 it. I'm convinced you can say almost anything, you can have any conversation and I won't make all the emotion the pain go away, But boy, will you will you be glad you did and you'll see the positive outcomes. That's beautiful. Thank you for that so encouraging. Let's grab our first break here and let our listeners and viewers think about maybe how they might want to navigate a conversation that's been difficult for themselves. I'm your host, doctor Relas Cortez. We've been on the air Todd Davis. He is a senior consultant and thought leader at Franklin Covey and the author and co author of a few books, including Get Better fifteen Proven Practices to build effective Relationships at work and Everyone Deserves a Great Manager. We've been talking a bit about why we're afraid of conflict, how we can start to approach it. After the REK, we're going to talk about some of the common pitfalls or mistakes people make when they attempt to navigate conflict. Stay with us. We'll be right back.

19:38 Doctor Elise Court has as a management consultant specializing in meaning and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author, she helps companies visioneer for a greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite a least to speak to your organization, please visit her at elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get your employees working on purpose. This is working on Purpose with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or to open a conversation with Elise, send an email to a lease A lisee at elisecortes dot com.

20:23 Now back to working on purpose. Thanks for staying with us, and welcome back to working on Purpose. I'm your host, doctor Elise Cortes, as I am dedicated to helping create a world where people realize their potential at work and are led by inspirational leaders that help them find and contribute their greatness, and we do business better than the world. I continue to research and write my own books, so my last one came out in March of twenty twenty three. It's called the Great Revitalization, How activating meaning and purpose can radically in liven your business. And I wrote it to help leaders understand the lay of today's workforce land what they need and want from work. Then I offer twenty two best practices to help you create the culture to get that. You can find it at a leascoretest, dot com or Amazon wherever you find your books. If you are just joining me today, My guest is Todd Davis. He is a senior consultant and thought liter at Franklin Covey, and he spent thirty five years of experience in human resources, talent development and executive coaching, and eighteen years as chief People Officer at the company, where he was responsible for the global development in over forty offices reaching one hundred and sixty countries. Amazing impact. Must have had just a crazy good time in those years. It was awesome. It was awesome. It is awesome. I'm still with the company in a different role, but it is. Yes, yes, absolutely so. Now we talked a little bit about that wonderful example you gave of helping deb which is just tremendous. It's amazing, you know, and that's the thing is so often people people go through life blind and not they don't know what the sharpneller are putting out because no one has the courage or the care. Yes, that's a little, the courage to approach

21:57 them with this difficult convert. Such a great illustration Todd of why this stuff is so important. So now let's illustrate some of the some of the common pitfalls or mistakes that people make when they do go to attempt to navigate a conflict. What does that look like? Yeah, well, in my experience, it's the okay, well you used the example earlier of one of your guests where they they outsourced it and I already talked about that. Now that didn't go well, I haven't. I haven't seen that experience yet. Although a cousin to that is just avoiding it, you know, not having it, out outsourcing it to no one, hoping it'll go away on its own, And that is very common, and it only gets worse. And then, like I experienced, when the time comes that you finally, if you finally do have it, the resentment not only is for the topics that were brought up, but that you waited so long to do it. So certainly.

22:47 That's that's something that only gets worse with time. The other thing, another thing I've seen is when people go in and it's just I got to get in and out as quick as I can. You just got to say what needs to be said and get it over. And that's really you know, we talk about having courage and consideration. That's having neither. You know, I don't really have courage. I'm certainly not being considerate, and we don't think of it in those terms, but that's what happens. So I just got to get the message across and then hope that they'll be able to get over the hurt and do something different about it. And so that's a common mistake, another mistake that I am familiar with, you know, and I would ask your listeners to think about this. You know, your tendency. Do you tend to will while we want a perfect balance, do you tend to err on the side of courage or lean towards the side of courage or on the side of consideration. And most people, particularly people in organizational development and human resource opportunities, if they're not perfectly balanced, they err on the side of consideration. And that's a good thing that can be a good thing, but in difficult conversations, what can happen is that you're so considerate and you present the topic in such a considerate way that you leave the conversation and they didn't get the message thank you, yeah you said it, that you didn't really say it. And so that's something that I've coached leaders on and I used to experience myself. People who are overly considered or very considerate what feels to them like they're approaching approaching the line of being offensive. They're

24:17 not, but to them, it feels like it. And so that's what I've coached people to say. Look, you're such a considerate person that when you are direct and you say whatever the topic is, I know to you that feels like you're going to be offending them. You're not coming close to offending them, You're just being direct. So declare your intent. You know, Hey, Elise, I want you to know I think so highly of you and there's something I've been observing that I believe is holding you back and I want to share it with you only because I care about you. Start out like that, like I said previously, and you can you can then be is be direct, still with respect, but be direct. So that's that's another pitfall is being overly considered overly courageous, you know, and yeah you can go in and say, look, I you know, I'm glad you are the team, but you got to change this er you're out.

25:03 Well, that person's probably going to leave because people leave their leaders, they don't leave organizations and it's oh, you're going to to talk to me. So this balance of courage and consideration, when those are out of whack, are the where the pitfalls come. M hm wow. So that's that was That was great. I appreciate so much for you laid laying out how to even open the conversation for our listeners and viewers. So great. Now what gets interesting for me? And this is probably why you spent us all these years at Franklin Comby, because there's so much work to do, some many layers to take on. But then we think about such things as power dynamics or cultural differences, difference in personality. Now that adds a whole layer of complexity. It's one thing for you and I as maybe something like something like colleagues to have a conversation like this or you with somebody on your team.

25:52 What if we want to have a conversation with somebody who's a few levels above us in terms of a leadership role, or this's the CEO for gosh sakes, you know, Or what if this is somebody that speaks a whole different language and really values things very different than us. That becomes much more nuanced. So can you just speak a little bit to addressing some of those complexities. Yeah, it's a really good important point you bring up in and for us, particularly at Franklin Covey, we were a global company. As you mentioned in my intro, we have offices around the world, and so while the principles are the same, the principles are the same, the way that you model or use those principles have got to be quite different a direct conversation.

26:37 I'll never forget. We were making a video years ago. I used to work on what was called our Innovation team, where we create some of our content, and we were making a video over in Japan, Tokyo Star Bank is the name of the bank over there, and we were doing a series of interviews with some of the bank employees and the leaders there, and we were about fifteen. It's behind schedule, and the one of the people over there that was for Japan, it was the host and any of these people that were coming in, they were so pleasant and talking and and she came and she said, Okay, these people are really angry and I said they are. They don't seem angry, they're fine, And she said, yeah, they're not going to let you know they're angry. They're angry because you're fifteen mins behind and they have blocked out this schedule. And this was years ago. But to your point, there are so many nuances the way that our behaviors and our manners and our cultures show up. And so while the principle of seeking first to understand, let's say, before being understood, well, that principle and that habit is the principle is the same, the way that we do that or the way that that's received is going to be very different in different countries back over into Asia where where people are not stereotyping, but in general people are much more hesitant to then speak up or engage in a conversation and asked a question, give shorter answers, and they're very reserved that way. And so being mindful of that not pushing people. We

28:07 have to adapt. I don't have exact formulas here other than to be very mindful of each culture when you're dealing with a challenging or different conversation, to understand what's acceptable and what's not acceptable. But here's what I will say, Elise, and I've worked not in every country, but I've worked in a lot of countries. If your intent is in the right place, and if you share your intent upfront, even if it's some of a different culture. I was in Dubai, had this great experience in Dubai, and we had this discussion and I said, look, I'm not from here, and I'm learning about you, and we're going to talk about these things here. Just know that my intent is to help. I'm here to help and I want this office to run very successfully. So if I'm saying things that aren't the way that you would say them, you know, being from this country, will you please let me know and help me to be more effective than what I'm trying to share. Edit It just opened up doors. Just we're all human beings. That's one thing we do have in common. That's brilliant, you know, Todd. That is such a great thing to say that's you know, put your intent out there and then ask them to give you a course correct if you if you go off, of course, beautiful. That's the way. That's the way I learned my languages when I live in Spain and Brazil. By the way Todd, I would say, I'm going to speak Spanish and would you you know I'm going to make mistakes. Will you just tell me as I go so I can correct myself. So then they didn't feel it wasn't embarrassing or anything. And I learned it so much faster that way. So I agree, in fact, if I can make further comment at least even even you know, in in the United States where I live, and in English, even in a conversation with someone that grew up

29:38 here, I will often say, if it's a difficult conversation or something I'm a little worried about how things are going to be received, I will say to the person. And some people may disagree with this, but I will say, let's you know, you and I are in the conversation, I say, hey, lease, I didn't just share some information with you. I'm probably going to say it wrong. Will you give me a little bit of pre forgiveness. Will you let me get this out and then know that if it comes out wrong or if it's offensive, of course my intent is to be offensive. But I'm just going to get this out of the table and then we can start to discuss it. I will just be open and up front like that, and it deuces defenses. It helps people feel like they're a partner with me and trying to get to the right solution here.

30:19 So so even without cultural differences, I will I will ask for forgive this upfront as I share some information, meaning if I say something that's offensive, no that's not my intent, and help me tell me a better way to say it, because I need to bring up this topic. I love that talk. That's so so great. You know, next week we're going to be talking about being culturally savvy and anti racist leaders and so you know, learning how to speak to different groups so that you don't offend them is critical today, and so saying you know, I'm probably going to get this wrong, so please, you know, tell me how you want me to address you, you know, help me get it right. It's just gorgeous. So but what you're also speaking to to me, what it really facts?

31:00 Of this little thing called emotional intelligence. Right, And you can't go anywhere today without hearing leaning purpose and emotional intelligence. It seems to me those there are such common terms. So talk to us about how emotional intelligence plays in the effective conflict navigation, and then let's just talk a little bit about how we can start to improve it for our selves as individuals. Yeah, love that you Love that you went there next, because I think that is the key to all of this. The word empathy is the key, and empathy is you and I both know it different than sympathy. Empathy is as much as we possibly can putting ourselves in the shoes of the other person. And in my experience, no one can say I know how you feel. In fact, I cringe when I hear that. This is a little bit odd thing about me. When I was a little kid, while my friends are out playing ball or whatever, I was reading and Landers column in the news or yeah, most of your listeners are probably too younger, and Landers is shoes as advice columnist. And I remember my mom even saying, what are you reading that for? I think I was ten years old, but I was just I was just engaged by it, and I still remember an article that Anne Landers wrote and talked about the unintentional but yet offensive thing that happens when someone says I know how you feel. And I have learned that over and over again, even if you know your mother died six months ago and my mother just died, for me to say, oh, my mother just died, I know how you feel, well, you're assuming that our relationships with our mothers were the saying. You're assuming that we had the same background, same experiences, And so I actually say the opposite of that with people.

32:32 I will say, look, I don't know how you feel. And often people will say, well, yes you do. You've been through this, I know, and I will say to them, but everybody's experience is different. So I want you know, I don't know how you feel, but I really respect and appreciate you right now and what you're going through. And I'm sincere when I say that, and people I can just tell them feeling like, oh thank you, they can just fail it. Yeah, all these all these people tell me they know how I feel. And so back to empathy as much as we possibly can, putting ourselves in the place of the other person. And so, like I said, any conversation before it even begins. I remember, Okay, if Todd, if you were them, sure, it's going to be embarrassing. It's embarrassing. I don't want to be called out on something or I don't mean you know, and I'm going to feel defensive and I'm going to feel awkward. So I get that in my mind without airing too far on the side of consideration. I get that in my mind, and it really helps the way I present or tee up the conversation. You know. Doctor Stephen Covey, the best selling author of The Seven Habits of FINDI Victim gosh Man I had the esteem privilege of working with for many years before his passing. He often said, the deepest need of the human heart is to feel understood. Yes, and when I first heard that, I didn't disagree, but I thought, is that really true? Boy? Have I learned it over and over and over again.

33:51 It is true. The deepest need of the human heart is to feel understood. And so even a in a difficult conversation where it is a leader with an employee, it's a before suscussion in this employee's got to change the behavior. Nothing works better than taking time to understand them. Yeah, well you're not a green empathy. You're not agreeing or disagreeing. You're just suspending your feelings long enough so you can really hear them without judging, without you know, giving immediate feedback, but just hearing them out. So that's my take on empathy. Well, that's wonderful and really quick. We're going to take our next break here. I don't know if you know this or not, Todd, but I've had the extreme, extreme privilege and pleasure of hosting Steven Mr Covey and Covey on my program. So yeah, I'm a Covey and Franklin Covey fan, So you're you're in a very good company here, my friend, lovely time for our last break here, I'm at least Cortez, your host. We've run in the air with Todd Davis. He is a senior consultant and thought leader at Franklin Covey and the author and co author of a few books including Get Better fifteen Proven Practices to build Effective Relationships at Work and Everyone Deserves a Great Manager. After the we're going to talk a little bit about how we can start to effectively navigate conflict even in remote work settings. Stay with us, We'll be back. Doctor Elise Cortes is a

35:22 management consultant specializing in meaning and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author, she helps companies visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite a lease to speak to your organization, please visit her at Elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get your employees working on purpose. This is working on Purpose with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or to open a conversation with Elise, send an email to Elise alisee at eliscortes dot com. Now back to working on purpose. Interesting with us and welcome back to working on Purpose. I'm your host, doctor at Elise Cortes. I mentioned in the last break about my latest book coming out, which is a great great revitalization. What I did for you to go along with that as I created a three page assessment for you to be able to download from my website gusturdesh now dot com, and that will help you understand the extent to which your current company's culture is operating at the capacity that it needs to attract and keep today's workforce. If you are just joining me today, my guest is Todd Davis. He is a senior consultant and thought leader at Franklin Covey and with over thirty five years of experience in human resources, talent development and executive recruiting. He spent eighteen years as the Chief People Officer of the company, where he was responsible for global development and over forty offices and reaching sixty one hundred and sixty countries. So, as I

36:55 mentioned before, we took the break here. Now we find ourselves in this radically different world, which is of course why I wrote that last book. But now when we navigate conflict in a more of a remote setting or via zoom or phone, it requires another level of skill. So let's talk about that. Yeah, yeah, it's it is more challenging, It is more challenging, and it is reality, and so we can learn through that. Body language still matters. I was just coaching somebody the other day, and sometimes more so because we're up closer, we can see the eye rolls, or we can nodding head or whatever, and so being fully present, as present as we can. I even like I'm doing right now. I always, and this is a this is a tactical thing, but I always make sure I move my camp the person I'm talking to right up under my cameras so that I'm I look like I'm looking as close as I can right at them, just so they have my full attention. Uh. It's also so important in any conversation, quite frankly, but particularly in a sensitive or difficult conversation, to be fully present, To take off your Apple watch if you have one that vibrates every time you get a message, and to put the phone away, and to not have other things on your desk that you think you can maybe sneak in a work while you're attending to listen. God, how many, how many? How many of us, quite frankly, how many of us have been nodding and smiling, but we're really not listening.

38:30 I know I've been thinking of that. I think while we're working on tomorrow's agenda for the meeting of the morning, yes, or or if we're engaged in the conversation, but we're honestly, to be honest, we're thinking about what we're going to say next doctor Stephen Covey seven habits author have at five is seek first to understand, then to be understood. And the big concept in there, and that one that I try and live by is listen with the intent to understand, not the intent to reply. And come from a bad place where where good people we want to solve, we want to fix. And so a Lisa's talking to me about something and I hear just enough to think, oh, I know where she's going with that, and so in my mind, I'm trying to formulate or I am formulating what I would do what I and it may not even be where she was going. But that's how our minds work. And so I advise people and myself resist that temptation and just suspend. Like I said, Earl, You're suspend my thoughts long enough to really just be there, to listen, to be fully present, maybe ask questions, but but not. It's not the time to advise or probe. It's just it's just to listen, be fully present. And and that's even more so, and well it's always important, so but it's a little more difficult on zoom and through technology, but we can certainly do it. And I think I remember seeing some of your material before too, that when we do that, it really one, it removed. It reduces all of the not all the emotions in the person who's sharing, so that so that as they share and you you've they recognize that you do understand them.

40:02 If they are frustrated, angry, or upset, those emotions start to diminish. So now you can walk and come into the productive zone, right of having an actual exchange that can be useful and productive. You can't do that until those emotions that are so high are carried through and cycled to a more reasonable level. That's exactly right. I mean someone you know, and I'm making these situations up, but someone who's got a performanceation, and I say, hey, Doug, we've got we've got a real problem here. And the fact that you're late every day with this, well I'm not late. And listen to him ramble on and if you will, and again you got to be sincerely, you just say, okay, So so what you're what I hear you saying, and tell me if I'm wrong. But you're you're feeling You're not feeling really appreciated for the work you do. You're acknowledging that you're late, but you're saying that when you get here, you put in more time and more effort than everybody else in the team. And you're not agreeing with them, but you're just clarifying, saying, is that my understanding correctly? Well, yeah, that's right. And the more you can seek to understand, not agree, but I understand just what you said, at least you can start to diminish that defense of this and kind of let the you know what we used to call it psychological air. You're giving them psychological air so that they can then breathe and then they can start to digest.

41:12 And I don't pretend any of these things we're talking about make the challenge go away, but it absolutely makes it more malleable and workable so that we can start to get to a better place things that come up. That's the number one reason in our in our course navigating different conversations, that's the that's what we focus on. The number one reason people are uncomfortable or shy away from these is they don't know what emotions are going to come up, and we don't know either. But if we can be prepared for whatever kind of emotion comes up when we use three three tools here we use pause, don't panic, observe, don't judge, and ask and ask uh don't so we want to pause, what observe and want to ask? My mind just went wank, but I was going to ask pause, don't panic, observe, don't judge, judge, and ask don't assume don't so just ask questions and those three tools with most, if not all emotions that come up, those can those those actions can really help reduce the defensiveness and the anger, the emotion that is there present. You know, I'll just throw this in here.

42:15 One of the things that I I've gotten present to and now addressed in my work Todd is just how much people are afraid of emotions. And you know, we start off life, you know as these young you know, embulent, joyous, you know, expressive things. You know, where we can be mad, we can be frustrated and really really be and really sad. And then you know, we go to school and we learn that we have to kind of contain these behaviors and some things are just not appropriate in the setting. And then we start getting going through life and life steps on us and squashes on us, and we learn about being ashamed and afraid all these things. Right, So by the time I meet people, you know, probably you two in the thirties, forties and fifties, you're down to the small little spectrum of emotions to work from. So they're terrified of you knows, and and so part of you know, my work is helping people to understand the role of emotions. They're giving you vital data from which to be able to make sense of the world and your relationship. They're not to be stuffed and feared. And so I really appreciate how you navigate through this with people, helping to coach them how to be able to address and be with people in their emotions just by listening and trying to understand them. It's just so beautiful. Thank you, thank you, You're welcome. So you you mentioned something earlier that I think would would be good for us to talk about. Announced that this notion that we've talked about this on this program here too, of psychological safety in the on the context of conflict navigation. So you know, some organizations it's much more safe to open a conversation or to

43:47 start to navigate conflict, and others not so much. And so let's talk about the role of psychological safety in this. Well, yeah, we got we got to know that, we get, we get we got to know the culture, We got to know the what the rules are of engagement. So so help me undersaid a little bit more about specifically what you're what you're asking for, well especially you know, so you know, let's let's let's say it like this. So if I were working with and for you, toadd there, we already know that you would create, you know, a psychological safety for me to be able to probably bring up most anything, because that's who you are, that's how you But for let's say I'm working for a boss who is well that step that I work for depth, and I want to be able to bring something up and I haven't quite progressed the way that you have with you know, with her, and I want to be able to address that. But I know that you know that that there might be some backlash. She might you know, be angry, she might yell.

44:43 I mean, I'm I've worked with organizations where the leader of the organization when people brought things up that he didn't like, the big vein in his forehead bulged and people were like afraid he was going to like have a heart attack right there. It's not a safe thing to be around, you know. So so how to be able to navi gate and you know, navigate conflict even though we're in that kind of environment. How do we how do we go about that? Yeah? What what I'm going to share? And I'm not pretending this is easy. You know, you and I can get on this podcast and talk and they just do this and this and this and it'll be fine. It'll be fine. Very knowledgeable that I'm very aware that that's not the case. But if I were in that situation, every situation is different. If I were in that situation, it would take some courage and I would talk to that leader and I would say, Hey, I need to I need to share some things with you. I love the organization, I love my role, but here there are some things that that aren't working as I had anticipated them working. And I'm asking you, as my leader, to maybe hear me out and could we partner on this. Could I talk to you about something I might be looking at them wrong. And I always had a big dose of humility there and I'm sincere at it but I will say I might be looking this wrong, but here's what what I have viewed is happening on the team, and I'm concerned about it, and I'm not quite sure how to bring it up with you. I would never say to a person you're pretty unapproachable and so you know, but I would say, I'm not quite sure how to bring it up with you, but I want to feel comfortable coming to you as my leader. Is that okay if we have a conversation, I share this with so always honoring them,

46:14 respecting their role, but also connecting with them on a human level is saying, you know, I'm excited to be here at the company, but I'm concerned about some of these things, and and I haven't been here long enough to know what is the protocol. So I'm just going to be really open and honest with you. And that's what I kind of the earlier example I get. I just I find it's better, healthier, easier to call it what it is to say, Look, I don't know how things work in your culture, so I bet I'm going to say some things wrong here. Will you please forgive me and correctly. I would use the same philosophy with a difficult leader, I would just say, hey, can you kind of help me navigate this. I'm a little bit lost here and I'm feeling concerned about X y Z situation, about how I'm feeling about my role, and so I just want to talk openly with you, because at least if if their answer is well, you're just going to have to stuck up, well, then then I might want to be deciding whether this is really where I want to work, because you know, but the leader values gets valued, and so that's going to be the tone of the But I think most people, even the most guarded, you know, strong armor people, unapproach with people. When you can start talking in just a human way with them, most people remember their humans. Yeah, we discuss those things. Well, we we've I don't know how we did already, but we've come to the end of the show already here, So for you forever, You're awesome, You're amazank you, thank you. Likewise, we are we are we are common, we are common souls here and we were caring about some of the

47:45 very same things. So but I want to give you a chance to close the conversation how you like you know, the show is listen to why people around the world. We want to create a workplace where people really want to come and contrive, They want to give their best and grow into their best. What would you like to leave them with? Yeah, thank thank you for asking that. It's great question. Just and I'll be quick and know we're out of time. But first of all, people, I've said it earlier, but people leave their leaders. They don't leave organizations. They leave their leader. And so remember that if you're in a leadership role, what you do. Everything you do in sane models, trust and models, you know the culture. And then the second thing, I'll say this is a little bit out there, but the other day I was driving somewhere and I saw a big motor home. It was towing a boat and maybe the vote was towing some RVs, I don't know, but a lot of toys.

48:30 And there was a bumper sticker on the back that said the one with the most toys wins, or he you she or he with the most toys wins. And I remember looking at that and certainly being envious of all the toys they had. But I thought to myself, and I mean this sincerely, I think the one with the most meaningful relationships. The one who dies with the most meaningful relationships wins. And yes, I'd love to have those toys too. But here's the point. If you have meaningful relationships, you find people who have boats and cars and homes from Yes, that's right, Yeah, but I really would end with I just think relationships at the end of the day, you are at the top of my list, matter more than anything else. Beautiful way to finish, Todd. Thank you. It's really a delight to know you. And I do have a tendency sometimes to show up on my guest doorsteps when I'm in their cities. So just if you hear a little quiet knock, it's me. We've got some guest rooms here.

49:21 You're always welcome, wonderful listeners, viewers. If you want to learn more about Todd Davis, Franklin Covey and the work they're doing here, definitely check them out. Their site is FranklinCovey dot com. Let me spell that for you, so Franklin f R A N K L I N Covey c O V e E y so FranklinCovey dot com. Last week, if you missed the live show, you can always catch it if you recorded podcast. We were on air with Kevin Kelly, an architect of Shook Kelly and the author of Irreplaceable, How to Create Extraordinary Places that bring People Together. He is the first architect I've had on this program in the nine years I've been hosting it, and he taught me so much about the human condition and how physical surroundings can elevate or lower our energy and vitality. It was very eye opening, very interesting. Next week, we'll be on the air with Colette Phillips, the CEO of her own PR firm and the author of The Includers, the Seven Traits of culturally savvy, anti racist leaders. See you there, and remember work as one of the best adventures and means of realizing our potential and making the impact we crave. So let's Work on Purpose. We hope you've enjoyed this week's program. Be sure to tune into Working on Purpose featuring your host, doctor Elise Cortes, each week on W four CY.

50:31 Together, we'll create a world where business operates conscientiously, leadership inspires and passion performance and employees are fulfilled in work that provides the meaning and purpose they crave. See you there, Let's work on purpose,