Wisdom About Yourself is Everywhere Around You -- If Only You’ll Learn to Ask

0:00 The topics and opinions express in the following show are solely those of the hosts and their guests and not those of W FOURCY Radio. It's employees are affiliates. We make no recommendations or endorsements for radio show programs, services, or products mentioned on air or on our web. No liability, explicit or implied shall be extended to W FOURCY Radio or it's employees are affiliates. Any questions or comments should be directed to those show hosts. Thank you for choosing W FOURCY Radio. What's working on Purpose? Anyway? Each week we ponder the answer to this question. People ache for meaning and purpose at work, to contribute their talents passionately and know their lives really matter. They crave being part of an organization that inspires them and helps them grow into realizing their highest potential. Business can be such a force for good in the world, elevating humanity.

0:49 In our program, we provide guidance and inspiration to help usher in this world we all want working on Purpose. Now here's your host, Doctor Relise Cortez. Welcome back to the Working on a Purpose program, which has been brought to you with passionate and price since February of twenty fifteen. Already, thanks for tuning it again this week. Great to have you. I'm your host, doctor Elis Cortes. If we've not met before and you don't know me, I'm an organizational psychologist, management consultant, LOCO therapist, speaker and author. My team and I at Gusto Now help companies to enliven and fortify their operations by building a culture and leadership activated by meaning and purpose. Our mission is to help our clients create a destination workplace where people flock to join, are intrinsically motivated to perform at their best, can grow to their full potential, and are committed to stay at and I can deliver on the company's mission, which translates to higher profits for you.

1:41 You'll learn more about more abou us and how we can work together at gasteau dashnow dot com and my personal site at Lescortes dot com. Getting into today's program we have with us today. Jeff Wetsler the co CEO of Transcend, a nationally recognized innovation organization, and an expert in learning and human potential. Jeff's experience spends twenty five years in business and education as a management consultant to top corporations, a learning facilitator for leaders, and as Chief Learning Officer at Teach for America. He is the author of Ask Tap into the Hidden Wisdom of People around You for unexpected breakthroughs in leadership and life, which we're talking about today. He joined it today from New York City. Jeff a hearty welcome to Working on Purpose.

2:24 Thank you so much. It's wonderful to be with you. It's really great. As I mentioned before we got on air, Jeff, I really really applaud you for this beautiful book that you brought into the world. Thank you. This is really hard work and it's fresh, and there's a ton of wisdom in this thing. Well, if we employ five percent of what you put in that book, Jeff, we will be much better humans. Ah. That means a lot, and that is why I wrote the book. Good. You see we're starting off on the right foot exactly. All right, good, Well, let me do. This, Jeff. One of the things I like to do on this program on occasion is I like to read certain passages from the book as it makes sense. Great, and I wanted to start by saying a little bit about the bit of your foreword that was written by Amy Edmondson, because it situates the promise of your books. So let's do that first, she says. In my research and teaching at Harvard Business School, I have discovered that countless executives and NBA students are stuck in ways of communicating that prevent them from achieving the goals they care about. Most.

3:21 The majority of them have succeeded in the past by knowing the right answers. Unfortunately, this has trained them in a habit of thinking that is deeply incurious, which in turn shapes their interactions with others in subtle but problematic ways. To move forward, they must renew their innate curiosity and focus it on new questions, while also learning how to listen deeply to the answers their questions generate. In short, they and all of us need to understand who and how to really learn from the people with whom they work and live. And so what I appreciated about your book so much, Jeff, is you're really teaching us the fine art of not just me able to ask those questions, but to situate a space where people one are compelled and want to respond and feel safe to respond so so much in that I just want to start with that foundation.

4:13 I think, I think you isolated a great passage and to start with and put your finger on the core premise, which is that the people around us, that could be our colleagues, our investors, our customers, our friends, partners, they have such important information and wisdom and insight perspective feedback that if we could tap into it, if we could find out what they're really thinking and feeling and knowing, we would both be better off. We would make better decisions together, we would save a lot of time, we would innovate together, our relationships would be much closer. But that far too often we don't find that out because they keep it to themselves for all kinds of reasons which we can get into. And so the premise is, how do we do how do we unlock that? How do we tap into that hidden wisdom?

5:00 Yeah, that's literally walking around every day all around us, you know, in any ways, probably screaming to try to come out right now. I'm right. So I just really got so much out of it, and I've been trying to put it to you. She'll be glad to know. I'm thrilled to hear that, yes, well, I do want to situate your background to including your time and work at Teach for America and what you do with Transcend and just hear how some of these experiences have contributed to you writing this book. Great, well, I've had three kind of pivotal experiences that have contributed to writing the book one. The first one was the first decade of my career at a management consulting company called Monitor Group. That's where I first crossed paths with Amy Edmondson. And at Monitor there was someone who was Amy's doctoral advisor and also a very important mentor to me named Chris Ardoris. And he was one of, as you probably know, one of the kind of pioneers of the field of organizational learning. And he was obsessed with this question that Amy alludes to, which is that how is it that sometimes the smartest, most successful people are the worst at learning from other people in the way that they communicate. And Chris not only studied that problem, but he actually tried to do something about it. And so he developed a set of tools and methods for how for an alternative way that leaders and managers and others and organizations can interact that would be far more likely to produce mutual learning. And so I had the benefit of learning from him and others around him who really brought his ideas to life, and then the chance to really teach those ideas to consultants and plans around

6:32 the world, and I just saw how powerful they were. They Oftentimes people would say, like, these are life changing ideas, not just in my work, but in my personal life as well. And people would say, you know, this day of training or learning that we did was the most powerful day I've ever spent in something like this. And so I didn't originally invent any of this stuff. I just happened to inherit it from Chris, but I saw it was kind of like pure gold, and so that that was probably experience number one to say there's something really important here. Then I joined one of my clients, which was Teach for America. I became the Chief Learning Officer. I was responsible for the training and performance of thousands of teachers across the country, working in some of the highest needs communities, most under resourced communities in the country.

7:16 And I realized that that was my first operating role. I saw some of the limitations of some of the tools and technology that I had learned at Monitor particularly. I thought I brought a lot of curiosity. I thought I was doing the right things. I thought I was asking a lot of the right questions. But what I failed to appreciate at the time is that I didn't create the conditions for the people around me to feel safe giving me their honest answers. Yeah, you talked about that in the book, I remember, yes. So sometimes I would discover way too late that something was about to blow up, our way off track, even though I had been asking questions all year long and getting answers like, you know, we're good. You know, a couple bumps, but we got it. What I did, what I only learned too late, is that I wasn't creating safety for people tell me the real truth.

8:02 And so that. Started to come into the kind of toolkit and methodology and learning about what does that mean, particularly when you're working across lines of difference, whether those are difference in power and authority or race or gender. All of that was a play for me. I teach for America, and it really shaped me in a deeply crucible kind of way. I spent a decade there, and then my final decade so far has been at Transcend, which is an organization I co founded together with Alon Samoa that works with communities across the country who really want to modernize the education system, who want to rethink what's possible. How do we break out of this one hundred year old industrial model of education using design and community engagement. And the first thing that we always do anytime we're working with a community is ask and listen. Ask questions to young people what are your experiences in schools right now? But also encourage teachers and administrators and families to ask and listen.

8:55 And it's always striking to me that when you actually listen to a young person and the ideas that they have, they know what to do, they know where we need to be going. And teachers will say things like, you know, in twenty years of teaching, no one has ever encouraged me just to sit down for forty five minutes with a student and really ask them about what their experiences. I've never done that before, and I cannot unhear what they told me about how bored they are, or how they feel, or how disengaged they feel. And just the act of asking and listening has proved so powerful in the methodologies that we use. It's also taught me a lot about being a leader of building an organization and all those kinds of things as well. So these experiences have really been pivotal for me.

9:37 Just gold Jeff, you know, thank you for sharing that. A couple things, just really quick to remark on that what you shared. One it just how much I really appreciate the work that you're doing as somebody who's spent a lot of my life in education and also really seeing some major major caps in service today and what seems the world needs. And the second I want to applaud you know, I don't know if you consider what you're doing your purpose, do you? I believe so. I mean I think that I'm coming at my purpose from a lot of different angles, but the overarching purpose is to build just transformational learning experiences. M well, and what I want to celebrate there, Jeff. And one of the things I often talk about when I'm out speaking to audiences or working with with with organizations is, you know, the thing about purpose is you know, when we are true to it and we give ourselves over to it, we can see something through that little, small, little lens that no one else can see, and when we act on that, then we make the impact that we create. To me, that's what seems that's what you've done.

10:38 That's what I'm trying to do. So thank you for lifting that up. Yeah, so welcome, And I want to celebrate that too, want more people to find that and find that beautiful space because we need the gifts that they have to make the world a better place. I agree everyone has a unique contribution. Absolutely, but I'm out to activate more of that because I want to. I want them to bring that so the world is a better place and I want them to be fulfilled in the process. Yes, So what I want to do next is I want to work through as many of the messages from the various chapters as we can. I obviously won't get to all of them, but just starting with the first one here. You know what, what stays unspoken? The essential question that we're addressing that in that first chapter is what do you most need to know that people are least likely to tell you?

11:19 And when I when I first read the chapter, Chef, I was thinking of, you know, the emperor house no close who should tell him? You know, it's like that right, yes. And so I just want to talk through a little bit about just your perspective and some of the things that you want us to know that you shared in this first chapter. Yeah, so just referencing back to the time I spent it monitor and getting to work with Chris argeris. One of the methodologies that he introduced is something called the two column case. And so he would ask leaders to come into a workshop and bring an example of a dialogue that was representative of the kinds of conversations they wish they could be better at handling. And he did just say tell us about it. He had a very particular way of asking people to bring it in, and he said, draw a line down the sheet of paper, and on the right hand side of the line, I want you to actually give me data of what was said in the dialogue, so almost like a script in the play. Say I said this, she said this, I said this. You know, give me give me eight to ten lines of dialogue. And on the left hand side, what I want you to do is tell me what we're all of the unspoken thoughts and feelings that you were having during that conversation. And so it's basically like an X ray vision into someone's head and heart, but what's not being said? And I had the opportunity to look at hundreds and hundreds of these cases over the years, and it's just like an incredible treasure show of data to say what is actually not getting said to people.

12:51 And of course there's some junk in there and some bad assumptions and you know whatever else, but there's also a set of really valuable information. And so in chapter one of the book, what I try to do is distill out what are four of the most common categories of unspoken information, because chances are each one of us has people around us in our lives that may be withholding one or more of. These categories of information as well. So I can just run through them if you want, I'd agree Number one is. The what they're struggling with, what challenges they're having. So like that example I shared about myself and Teach for America, people on my team were struggling with things they needed help, And if I had known what they were struggling with, I couldn't done something. I could have rolled up my sleeves, I could have helped them. And so all manner of struggles challenges what someone's really going through often stays unspoken.

13:42 Second one is what they really think about a topic, a decision, an issue, a controversy, especially if their views feel unpopular to them, especially if they feel like you might already disagree with them. Chances are you're not going to hear the fototime. Third is their most important feedback and observations for you, really, what they think you could be doing better, what they think you're doing well, what suggestions would be a game changer for your performance, your development, all those kinds of things. And then the last one is their biggest, wildest, most audacious ideas that could be the breakthrough that your team needs, that your organization needs, that could be the major pivot, but that they might be thinking, this is going to sound too crazy, nobody wants to hear this. So when you add up those four categories and things, I think it's a treasure trove of insight and information that, to your point, is literally surrounds us all of the time.

14:41 Yeah, so much lost potential. So that's definitely what I was so aware of in reading your book, Jeff, is just thinking about just how much one helping ourselves by tapping in information but then helping these other people too, that we might actually activate these things that they think are wildly impossib So there's just so much potential on this. But exactly all. Right, Well, let's grab our first break and then we'll continue on. I'm your host, doctor Elise Cortez. We brun the air. Jeff Wetsler, co CEO of Transcend, a nationally recognized innovation organization and an expert in learning and human potential. We've been talking a bit about where his book came from and why it's important. After great, we're going to continue a conversation and go deeper. We'll be right back.

15:39 Doctor Elise Cortez is a management consultant specializing in meaning and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author. She helps companies visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite a lease to speak to your organization, please please visit her at Elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get your employees working on purpose. This is working on purpose with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or to open a conversation with Elise, send an email to Alise Alisee at Elisecortes dot com. Now back to Working on Purpose.

16:30 Thanks for staying with us, and welcome back to Working on Purpose. I'm your host, doctor Elise Cortes. As I'm dedicated to helping create a world where people realize their potential at work and are led by inspirational leaders that help them find and contribute their greatness, and we do business at better in the world. I continue to research and write my own books, so my last one came out in March of twenty twenty three. It's called The Great Revitalization, How activating meeting the Purpose can radically and liven your business. And I wrote it to help leaders understand the lay of today's very discerning workforce, what do they want? And then I provide twenty two best practices to help you equip your organization to provide that for them. You can learn more about all my books at at leastcore test dot com or find them on Amazon if you are just joining us. My guest is Jeff Wetsler.

17:12 He's the author of Ask Tap Into the Hidden Wisdom of People, around you for unexpected breakthroughs to leadership and life, which we've been talking about so far. So we want to go next is we've situated that there's so much potential of what we could actually learn from it if only we learned to ask in a good, compelling, appropriate way. But now let's talk about why people withhold? Why don't they tell us what they really think and feel? And you know, I can't obsessed with this question, especially as I realized what I was not finding out for people and how valuable it was, And I said to myself. Why aren't they telling me? I mean, this could be better. This is good for me, it's gonna be good for them too. We would all be better off if people would actually say what they really think and feel. So what's going on? What are the barriers?

17:56 And you know, in the work that I did and the research that I did for the book, several barriers emerged. The number one barrier is fear of the impact of what they have to say. Maybe they think it's going to make them look bad in my eyes. Maybe they think I'm going to judge them, But maybe they're worried about the impact on me. Maybe they think that I'm going to crumble or you know, start to retaliate against them, or maybe they've worried about the impact on our relationship, and so fear of the impact is one of the biggest barriers that people that holds people back. But there are other barriers as well. So, for example, another one is that people are often busy tired, especially these days, and they just think like this is going to take a long time.

18:40 I don't have the time and energy to do this, and. So it's just easier, faster, lower cognitive lift if I keep my mouth shut, then if I say something right. Another one is that sometimes people do want to say something, but they just don't have the right words to say it, they don't know how to say it in a way that's going to feel constructive, or maybe they actually just you know, I came across this interesting statistic where like people think it at nine hundred words a minute, but can only get out about one hundred and fifty words a minute. And so at any given moment, someone that we're speaking with has many more thoughts going through their head than what they're actually saying to us, not because they're maliciously withholding but literally just because the math doesn't work, so there's not enough time to get all the words out.

19:23 But to me, the most interesting barrier and the most actionable one for us, is that people don't tell us because they don't realize we're interested. They don't actually think that we value what they have to say, and so they don't think that we value what they have to say. And it's going to take time, and there could be some risk to it. It's a natural decision to keep quiet. Yeah, and none of this would be a problem if we could actually read people's minds, you know, if we could just yes, what they are thinking and feeling annoying. And it turns out that we think we're a lot better at that than we are. And even some of the best and vice most conventional wisdom, things like read their body language, turns out research shows that doesn't make us any better.

20:05 Try to put yourself in their shoes. Turns out that doesn't work either, because we're not actually in their shoes. There's only one thing that research has shown reliably allows us to figure out what people think pel a no, And of course that's asking them the question. But it's easier said than done. Yeah, for sure, for sure, it just really helps situate so that we really understand what people are up against for us to build to extract that precious wisdom from their minds and hearts. So at this point, let's do this, Jeff. Let's let's situate you have a whole ask approach, a whole ask model. So maybe it makes sense before we go further here, if you could just situate the steps to your approach. Yes. So they are five practices that I call them steps because they can often be helpful to be done sequentially, but honestly, any one of them will get you closer to learning from other people as well. The first one is called choes curiosity, and that's really awakening ourselves to truly want to understand what we can learn from someone else and recognize the limits of our own assumptions and stories, and really have a desire to learn. The second is called make it safe, and making it safe is all about lowering those barriers so that people feel more comfortable so it's easier for them to tell you their truth, especially hard truth. The third one is the heart of the ASK approach. It's called pose quality questions, and I define quality questions simply as questions that help us learn something important from someone else. And it turns out there's whole taxonomy of quality questions. There's different questions strategies that

21:36 we can use just the same way. I imagine a surgeon would say, I've got different tools for what I want to get at as well, I've got the scalpel of this, and that same thing can be true for questions, but we never get taught what are the actual best questions strategies to you? So that's step three. Then once we pose the question, it all comes down to how are we listen? And so step four is called listen to learn, and it's really about understanding what is mosttential that people tell us in terms of really taking in what they're saying, but also what they're not saying as well. And then the fifth one is my favorite because I told you my purpose is all about learning, and so the fifth one is about how do we make meaning of what we heard? How do we process it? Called reflect and reconnect. How do we convert the information that we heard into insight and that insight into action, And that's what reflection helps us do. And I talk about it as not just reflect for yourself, but reconnect to the other person and let them know, this is what I learned from you, and thank.

22:29 You and thank for the risk that you took as well. It's a complete cycle, yes, and to reward them for that right, For absolutely, I mean the courage and making the effort and going through with that, you know, and risking that you are going to take it badly. I just really love that step as well. So those are the five at a high level. Okay, well, let's dig into as many of those as we can as we have time. So then the first then step, or a part of it, is the curios approach. What that was add and. Yeah, so it's called choose curiosity. And I think the word choose is important because looking at curiosity not as something that's a trait that some people have or do other people don't have, or not as something that's a state of mind that we're in I'm feeling it or I'm not feeling it, but really as a choice, which means it's a decision that is always available to us.

23:21 And when we make the decision to be curious, we're really asking ourselves one question, which is what can I learn from this person? And when we ask ourselves that question, it starts to shake loose the stories we have, the assumptions that we have. It gives us the space to be wondering about things like, well, what do they see that I don't see? What is a different way to look at what I'm seeing right now? How might someone else interpret it? Is there a different conclusion that I could be reaching? And the underlying conceptual model for choosing curiosity that I draw from is called the latter of understanding. It was also originally developed by Chris Ardoris, and it really helps us to see when we walk into a situation and there's a hole, we're swimming in all kinds of information and data, everything from what if someone say, to what they're wearing, to what they didn't say, to the room millions and millions of data points. We've got to just zero in on a tiny fraction of it, because otherwise we would be paralyzed trying to pay attention to everything, and we forget that we've zeroed in on a tiny fraction of it and not the totality, and so we think that this tiny fraction of what we will be zeroed in on is reality. And then, of course, as human beings, we immediately zip up this ladder and we climb rung by rung by rung to interpret it and make it mean something and then have a story about it and then say we've got to do this next.

24:39 And that happens in microseconds outside of our conscious awareness, and so choosing curiosity is really about slowing down that process, walking back down the ladder and saying, what else might I have overlooked, what's another way to interpret it? And so on. And once we've done that, it makes the ability to ask questions come from a much more authentic place, because it's not a gimmick. It's really coming from a place of, Oh, I realize there's a lot more to know that I don't know right now, and so I want to understand and even that just that being in that state of curiosity, I think radiates an energy that causes people to want to share with us. Yeah, you know, like I can. I certainly can imagine this, you know, this response to being wow, Jeff, I never saw the way. I never imagine that when I am presenting and I say these things, they could actually be totally rubbing people in the wrong way. That never crossed my mind. Wow, thank you so much. I mean so the other person's like, oh, one, thank goodness, and two now they're leaning forward because you have recognized something in it.

25:42 So I really also really embrace choosing curiosity. Beautiful, Jeff. Okay. So now though, we've got to really taken another step further here, and that is to really make it safe for them. And so how do we make it easier for people to tell us the really hard things? Yes, and so in this part of the book, I talk about what I call a safety cycle, which is that how do you create psychological safety at the interpersonal level. The first part of that is about creating connection with the other person. It's hard to have any kind of safety if we don't if we're not connected with each other. And some of that is about making sure that we have built the connection far before the time when we're actually trying to have this conversation and learned, so dig your well away before you're thirsty, but thank you. Some of it is about the where and when do we actually connect as well, and so you know, as part of the interview the interviews for the book, I talked to CEOs, and I chose CEOs because CEOs are notorious for not hearing the truth from people, for people telling them what they think they want to hear, what's going to make them look good? And I said to the CEOs, how did you get the truth out of people, especially people multiple layers away from you? And one of the common themes was about creating connection. And they said, I would never invite someone to my office and make them sit across the big intimidating CEO deesk from me and assume that they're going to feel safe or comfortable telling me the truth. No, I'm going to do go where they want to go. I'm gonna go to We're gonna have lunch together, We're gonna go to the cafeteria, We're gonna take a walk, we'll sit on a couch, we'll

27:13 do a ride along. Whatever it is. And there was no single common answer other than wherever it is most comfortable for them to go. And so part of that is creating I find that my true my own personal life too. If I want to actually find out for my teenage daughter what's going on at school, it's not going to happen when she gets home from school and I say how is school or over dinner. It's going to be when she wants to talk about it, which is usually eleven PM, when she's done with her homework and done talking to her friends, and I want to be asleep, but that's when she wants to connect, and so I want to learn from her. That's what I need to that's what I need to do. Yeah, that's all the first part of. The safety cycle. I'm creating connection. Once we create connection, then it's all about opening up. If we want to ask other people to open up to us, we got to open up first.

27:56 We got to show our cards first. And it can be as simple as opening up about why I'm asking the question yes, or it could be as opening up even vulnerably, like here's what I'm struggling with, here's what I'm working on, here's. What I realized I don't know. Here's why I need your help. The more that we can open up in a vulnerable way, the more it signals to the other person that it's safer for them to do the same thing. Yes. Yes. And then the third one is what I call radio resilience, which is to essentially send the message to the other person, I can handle your truth. I can actually uh, you know, it's not going to shatter me if I might have an emotional reaction, but if I do, I'm not going to hold you responsible for that reaction. I'm going to own my own reactions. It can sound as simple as simple as saying something to someone like, hey, if I were in your shoes, I might be totally frustrated right now.

28:47 I'm you know, and if that's what you're feeling, I'd love to know that. Or I might be in whatever it is, whatever, whatever kind of lets the other person know this is discussible. I'm you know, I'm resilient to all of us. So creating connection, opening up, radiating resilience are three really important parts of making it safer for someone to share with us. I really like that really resiltes the other one's really you know, make intuitive sense to me. But this notion of look, I whatever you say to me, and even if I get emotional with what you tell me, it's okay. I think that is so powerful. Jeff, thank you. Yeah, I found it makes a huge difference. Yeah. Well now let's get into people are like, okay, okay, you've convinced me I need to do this, right, that's curious. Yeah, Now, now what do I do So now we get into the step of posing those quality questions. And I found you have a beautiful set of lists of questions in your book that really help guide. But let's talk about a little bit about how can we create and pose those quality questions.

29:44 So I think first of all, we needed to really distinguish between what's a quality question and what I call a krummy question. Yes, you do that beautiful in your book. I love it rubby questions. I think a lot of what what you know passes for questions I would call krummey questions. These could be ques questions that are just clumsy, Like you know, sometimes when people explain something and then they'll add, you know, isn't. That right at the end? I think sometimes people want to know you actually with them, but when they say it like that, I think it's clumsy because it makes it hard for the. Other person to disagree with him. Or of course, there's the sneaky questions that are you know, like what a lawyer would would ask people to try to get them to admit something. But we use sneaky questions all the time. Wouldn't it be better if we waited to do this a little. You know, those questions make it harder and people can feel manipulated. And then there's a tax questions, But quality questions really help us learn something important from someone, And there's a whole taxonomy. I'll give you just a couple examples if you want. I mean, one of my favorite strategies in the taxonomy is one that's called request reactions.

30:40 And this is just very simply saying to the other person, hey, here's what I think, or here's here's some feedback, or here's what I'd love to ask you to do, but I want to check what. Are your reactions to that? How does that sit with you, How does that strike you, how does that land with you? What might I be missing? Any of those kinds of questions are questions that really open it up for the person to let you know what is there thinking about your thinking? And I think so often we assume that if someone disagrees or it's not making sense, that they'll tell us. But for all the reasons we just discussed around lack of safety, oftentimes they don't tell us that, and so we walk away thinking we're good, and they're walking away thinking I totally disagree with them. And if we had only asked some version of what are your reactions to that, we would significantly increase the chances that we would actually find that out and could course correct and get on the same page much sooner than that. Sometimes I think we we intuitively ask a question like does that make sense, which is a version of requesting reactions. But I would call that a crummy question because it's very hard for the other person to say, no, that doesn't totally make sense, or people usually just nod when someone says does that makes sense? So that's, you know, that's one category of quality questions. Another category of quality questions that I love is one that I just call see what they see, which is really if someone has shared with your point of view and you started to dig deeper and say, tell me more about how you got to that. Or the next question can be are there some examples or what's a story that you have that would you know

32:12 that would really help me see how you got to that? Because people know things in all kinds of ways. Sometimes there's you know, quantitative data points, sometimes there's intuition, sometimes there's lived experiences. All of that is valid in. Terms of informing people's points of view, but oftentimes they will not share that with us unless we're actually explicitly inviting them to help us see what they see. So those are two of. About a dozen question strategies and the taxonomy that when I've learned, have made a huge difference for me, and I wish everyone could learn them as well. Well, we can just go to your book for that. Thank you very much. All right, let's grab our next break. I'm your host, doctor Early s quore tees what on the air with Jeff Wetsler. He's the co CEO of Transcend, a nationally recognized innovation organization, and an expert in learning and human potential. We've been talking about the steps of his ask model. After the break, we're going to get into the next step, which is really learning to listen to learn. When we actually get that feedback, we want to be able to listen to learn from it. See what this will be right back.

33:26 Doctor Elise Cortes is a management consultant specializing in meaning and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author, she helps companies visioneer for a greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment performance and commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite a lease to speak to your organization, please visit her at elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get your employees working on purpose. This is Working on Purpose with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or to open a conversation with Elise, send an email to Elise alisee at elisecortes dot com. Now back to working on Purpose.

34:18 Thanks for staying with us, and welcome back to Working on Purpose. I'm your host, doctor Elise Cortes. I mentioned in the last break that my last book came out in March at twenty twenty three, called The Great Revitalization. What I did for you is I created a three page free assessment that you can take off my website. It will help you understand the extent to which your current culture is actually medium the discerning needs of today's workforce. You can find it at gustodeshnow dot com if you are just joining us. My guest is Jeff Wetsler. He's the author of Ask Tap into the Hidden Wisdom of people around you for unexpected breakthroughs in leadership and life, which we've been talking about today. So this next step here, of course, is listen to learn. So let's just model what that doesn't look like. When somebody gives you feed back, you don't say that's not right, that's not.

35:02 It at all. That is a very good example of what it does not look like. Okay, so let's talk about what it does look like. But there's also many more subtle examples too, like you're just sort of saying like, okay, got it and let's move on, and the other person doesn't know, or saying, have I got some feedback for you too, So there's there's all kinds of I would say non examples of listening to learn. But really listening to learn is about about truly taking in what's most essential from someone. And one of the other amazing mentors that I had the opportunity to work with a monitor was someone named David Kanter, who was one of the pioneers in family systems therapy, and then he brought his tools for working with families to teams and organizations as well. And one of the things that he taught me is that people speak in different languages. Sometimes people speak in the language of content and they're actually saying here's the facts, the figures, the arguments, the claims, the propositions, all those kinds of things. That's that's what's going on. But sometimes people speak in the language of emotion. Here's what I'm feeling. I'm upset, I'm frustrated, I'm sad, I'm angry, I'm happy without all the things.

36:13 And sometimes people speak in the language of action. It's not about what I'm feeling or what I'm saying, it's what I'm doing. You know, I'm supporting, I'm pushing back, I'm raising questions, I'm repeating myself. And so if we really want to listen to what's going on, we need to learn how to listen through all three of those channels, content, emotion, and action. And when you do that, I think it's kind of like when you know a music aficionado trains themselves to listen for the vocals and listens for the percussion, and listens for the harmony, and is able to isolate each one, but then is able to put it back together in a way that creates a much much richer understanding of the whole piece. And we can we can train ourselves to listen for all three of those things as well. So that's that's the first piece. How do we triple them of information that we're taking in by listening through content, emotion and action. And then the strategies for doing that, there's quite a number of them. It starts with just becoming quiet and I call it, you know, zip the lip, but just like giving the other person actually the space to say something and not jumping in and feel filling the vacuum immediately, but really sitting there quietly and listening. A couple of the most powerful ones I'll just lift up. One is one is called paraphrase and test, and this is just simply saying back to the other person he had this is what I think I heard you say.

37:37 Did I get that right? Or what did I miss? And that does That's to me, like that's the magic question because it does multiple things. One is it lets you know if you got it right. And I will say at least half the time when I say that to someone, they'll say, well, that was kind of part of what I was saying, but that's not the whole thing. Now that you set it back to me, that is what I said, but what actually meant was this, So you get much better information when you do that, but it also sends the message to the other person how much you care about them that I've taken the time to actually use my own breath, my own words to check if I really get where you're coming from. That's a message of value to the other person as well. And then I also find that intense conversations, it can change the tempo, it can just slow things down. Rather than a point counterpoint back and forth. When one person says, wait a minute, before I just come back at you, I want to check that I hear you right. So if you take nothing away from this conversation, I would say, just paraphrase and check if you understood. Yeah, And I'll share maybe one other which is what I call just pull a thread, which is that when someone says something to you before you move on, just keep pulling. And part of I learned this from interviewing psychotherapists who would talk about this thing that they call the doorknob moment, which is that at the you know, right at the very end of a therapy session, you know, like minute forty nine and forty five seconds out of a fifty minute therapyt session, just as someone's getting up at their hand on the doorknob. That's when they say, by the way, I'm having an affair, or I'm being investigated by the government,

39:09 or And the question is like, why did they not say this for the entire you know, near hour that we were together, And it could be you know, I asked the therapist and they said it could be a number of things. What is they want to They're not sure how the therapist would react. Maybe they're building up the courage. Someone recently told me. Another reason is they might stay to the varian because they want the therapist to be thinking about them all week until the next week. Who knows. But the point is that the most important thing that someone has to say to you is often not the first thing that they say, the answer question. And so often we think we've asked the question, they've answered the question. Okay, let's keep going. We're good. But really you've got to pull the thread. And an easy way to pull the thread is just to simply say, can you say more about that? What else? What else?

39:51 And sometimes when I'm with my own team and more brainstorming, or I'm asking them a question, I'll just say, cool, that's an amazing idea. What else, and I'll say to them, I'm gonna keep asking what else until you tell me you're out of ideas because they keep getting better. Time I asking about it. Yeah, So just you know, continuing to pull that thread is another really important listening strategy. Awesome. I just want to add one more really quick, because I do want to go on here, and that is they want to watch your face. So as you're as you're getting this feedback and you're like, you know, you're screwing up your face because it hurts, it's it's painful, or maybe you don't agree or whatever I mean. So I really think that advice of being aware of what is your face saying you know, are you are you starting to girt your teeth, and it's your fist getting going into a going into a fist, and these are all things that might just tell you the person I am not going any further here.

40:41 So just want the CEO that I spoke with, Chuck halfuh he said, he he he He intentionally tries to keep kind of like a neutral receptive yes, you know, mildly positive reaction facial expression. And by the way, that positive reactions can also be as dangerous as the negative reactions too. Yes, people saying, well, what did I just say that? They themselves you know, happen whatever. So just being receptive and watching your facial reactions. And if you're the kind of person whose neutral face might look like they are upset, you. Can say that. Like I'll say it people sometimes. If you see me and I'm really like scrunching out my brow, like that just means I'm concentrated, don't you know, I'm not angry at you. And so you can be aware of how your face can get can get interpreted as well.

41:22 So powerful, so powerful. Okay, So we were coming on to the last step here, which is, as you said before, your favorite reflect and reconnect. So this is the essential question, is how do you turn talk into action? Yeah, and so I think a lot of people think that reflection is this kind of like esoteric thing. I've got to go on a meditation or treat in the woods to reflect. But reflection can be very practical. And so I talk about a method I call sift it and turn it. Sift it is just simply to say, you know, if someone told you twelve things in a conversation as yourself, which ones are the most important ones to really sit with.

42:02 Sometimes what people tell us is including feedback, is not all necessary or important for us to take in. Sometimes it's biased, sometimes it's not. You know, it's not healthy for us, And so sift it and ask yourself what of what I heard them say really matters the most? And sometimes it's helpful to sift it with a friend or a coach or a thought partner or a therapist or someone who can help you make sure you're sifting out, sifting out the right stuff and keeping in the right. Stuff as well. And then once you have those few nuggets, then I talk about turn it, which just means turn it over in your mind a few times. The first turn I talk about is what I call a story the story. Turn, which is just to simply say, what did I hear that might influence the story that I have about this person.

42:45 Maybe maybe I learned what they were up against. Maybe I learned about an impact that I'm having on them, Maybe I learned maybe it confirms my story, whatever it may be, But how does it change my thinking about what's going on? The second turn is to think about it at the level of what steps you can take, So based on how my story is getting revised. Do I want to apologize? Do I want to double down? Do I want to go faster? Do I want to make a left turn? Whatever it is, but what steps should I actually be taking. That's how you get it really actionable. And then the third is talking about it at the level of my stuff, my deeper assumptions, my biases, my ways of being. Is there something I learned from this person that might just shut it with any of that stuff, any of those habits, And if so, what did I learn about myself? And so it's the story turn, it's the steps turn, it's the stuff turned. And that's really how we squeeze the good insight out of what we learned from other people. And then, as I mentioned briefly before, it's not enough to stop there.

43:39 Then we reconnect. Then we go back to the other person, we say and we say, hey, thank you for sharing. Here's what I learned. By the way, Is this what you were hoping I would have learned? Is there anything I didn't learn that you were thinking maybe I should take away? And to your point, if you took a risk, thank you for taking that risk as well. And I think that really sends the message to the other person that their time was well spent. It helped them see that they matter, how powerful they are in terms of influencing us, especially if we say, and by the way, here's what I. Want to do about it. And I think it radically increases the chances that next time, when there's something for them to share with us, that they're going to feel motivated to do that too. Absolutely, And let's just think about just the quality now of that relationship and connection, right, and we know how much gets done through relationships. Exactly beautiful. So there was a couple of more areas that I wanted to hit, but given where we are on time here, I guess what I want to maybe treat last is this idea that you have in your book of you know, making this our superpower. How do we how do we what does it take to become a world class asker?

44:41 Yeah, and I will say that this is a skill set, it's a muscle then we can build. We were all born curious, so deep down in us, it's in there that curiosity, just in the in the say in that opening quote you read from ABM and since you talked about renewing our name, our name, curiosity as well, But there's also specific techniques and strategies and skills that I don't think we were born with that we can actually learn, things like the ways to make it safe, things like the taxonomy of questions. And just like any other skill, it's really about chunking it up, so, you know, taking one piece of it, realizing when we might not be doing it, that we could be doing it. Then starting to pry it out in small, safer environments, then getting some feedback, watching what happens when we try it out, what did we see? Sometimes it's even telling the other person, haven't trying a new question, how did that land for you?

45:39 And then practicing it. Oh, and that practice feedback, practice feedback is what starts to make it fluid, make it feel natural for us. And then pick the next skill and try it again, and pick the next skill and try again. And then once you start to get those down, you can begin to then try it in a slightly more risky circumstance and from there it's beginning. You know, it goes for being kind of a new skill to a muscle, and ultimately I think to a superpower that really does start to come more. Naturally beautifully situated because that gives me enough time now to hit the last area that I wanted to hit for you. So thank you for that. Jeff, You're a great partner. You know, given that I do work with the organization to help them build their culture that's activated in meaning and purpose, I would be remiss if we didn't talk about how we can fold this into our team, making this our organizational superpower. As you say, so this idea of how can we unlock the collective genius of our teams using this methodology.

46:33 Yes, and so it's a recognition that every team, both inside the team and around the team as insight, collective intelligence, collective genius around it. And there are a number of ways that teams and organizations build us in. You know, more and. More teams and organizations are getting very intentional about tapping into end users. Those end users might be customers, those could be software users, those could actually even be employees themselves as well, but really being intentional about asking the right questions, making it safe for sure, closing the loop, saying here's what we had, you know, here's what we did with what you had, with what you shared with us. There's also a number of hiring practices one can build actually send the message that we value curiosity. When I know when I was hiring, when I was interviewing for my first job, one of the things that happened was that PETE was that after a big performance task, someone sat me down and gave me a whole bunch of critical feedback. And I thought they were just being nice and telling me why I didn't get the job, But what they were really doing was testing for my reaction.

47:37 Was I going to be curious about that feedback? Were I going to be defensive about that feedback? And you could see some natural incarnations that people have as well. Yeah, of course there's also the possibility to actually do this training and help people actually build these skills. Read the book, do workshops practice, All that kind of stuff really embeds it. But the thing I think I would maybe land on the hardest is the modeling of leaders. For leaders to see themselves as learners in chief, whether you're a team leader, whether you're a business leader, CEO, in order to actually model for your people what it looks like to say, wow, I don't know the answer to that, or I need some help, or what can I learn from you? Or here's a question, or I'm really curious about this, or I got that wrong. And here's why any of those kinds of things can go so far in terms of sending the message in your culture. This is an important thing to do.

48:28 Jeff. That's just gold beautiful. I'm so grateful to know you. And by the way, I last week I had on my show I'm doctor Marie Helen Pelletier and I told her you were coming on. She goes, Oh, I know Jeff and his work, so you are officially famous. So just say, in about thirty seconds, what would you like to leave our listeners and viewers across the world with. I think we just say, there is something important to learn from every single person in your life, even people that you think you've known for years, even people that you live with that you're very close with. There's something you don't know that if you can tap into, will make you better off, and we'll make your relationship better off. We'll and and we'll really benefit them as well. And it's totally doable.

49:12 It's something that we can all learn to get better at. Jeff, thank you. What a beautiful way to close. As I said, very grateful to know you. And definitely want to be able to spread this beautiful word about what you're doing in your work. So thank you for being on working on purpose. Thank you so much for having me really appreciate the conversation. Very very welcome. Great stuff. Listeners and viewers, you are going to want to learn more about this remarkable man, Jeff Wetsler, the work he does at trends In and his book Ask So the best way to start that process is just go to his website, ask approach dot com, Ask approach dot com. Last week, if you missed the live show, you can always get to be a recorded podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. We were on here with doctor Marie Helen ven Tier talking about her book The Resilience Plan, a strategic approach to optimizing your work performance and mental health. She taught us just how important it to proactively manage our resilience and lead out a plan to do so. Next week, we'll be on the air with Karen Golden Biddle talking about her book The Untapped Power of Discovery, How to create the change that inspires a better Future. We will talk about how nurturing a learning organization and embracing the discovery process, Leaders and their teams can take the path that goes beyond familiar change management practices and far beyond the limited scope and assumptions of change management that is still taught in North American business schools today. See you there, Remember that work is one of the best adventures and means of realizing our potential and making the impact we crave. So let's work on Purpose.

50:39 We hope you've enjoyed this week's program. Be sure to tune into Working on Purpose featuring your host, doctor Elise Cortes, each week on W four CY. Together we'll create a world where business operates conscientiously. Leadership inspires and passion performance and employees are fulfilled in work that provides the meaning and purpose they crave. See you there, Let's work on Purpose.