Sept. 4, 2024

Wisdom About Yourself is Everywhere Around You -- If Only You’ll Learn to Ask

Wisdom About Yourself is Everywhere Around You -- If Only You’ll Learn to Ask

There is so much to learn about yourself, and you will spend your lifetime doing so. You can radically elevate your self-awareness and accelerate your own growth and development for breakthrough results with a simple, yet little practiced method --...

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There is so much to learn about yourself, and you will spend your lifetime doing so. You can radically elevate your self-awareness and accelerate your own growth and development for breakthrough results with a simple, yet little practiced method -- asking for feedback from people you meet every day. Learn to ask questions in a way that makes it safe for people to give you real and actionable feedback on your actions and communication, and you open the door to breakthrough results in life.

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The topics and opinions express in the following show are

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solely those of the hosts and their guests and not

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W FOURCY Radio.

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What's working on Purpose?

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Anyway?

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Each week we ponder the answer to this question. People

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ache for meaning and purpose at work, to contribute their

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talents passionately and know their lives really matter. They crave

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being part of an organization that inspires them and helps

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them grow into realizing their highest potential. Business can be

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such a force for good in the world, elevating humanity.

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In our program, we provide guidance and inspiration to help

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usher in this world we all want working on Purpose.

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Now here's your host, Doctor Relise Cortez.

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Welcome back to the Working on a Purpose program, which

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has been brought to you with passionate and price since

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February of twenty fifteen. Already, thanks for tuning it again

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this week. Great to have you. I'm your host, doctor

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Elis Cortes. If we've not met before and you don't

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know me, I'm an organizational psychologist, management consultant, LOCO therapist,

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speaker and author. My team and I at Gusto Now

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help companies to enliven and fortify their operations by building

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a culture and leadership activated by meaning and purpose. Our

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mission is to help our clients create a destination workplace

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where people flock to join, are intrinsically motivated to perform

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at their best, can grow to their full potential, and

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are committed to stay at and I can deliver on

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the company's mission, which translates to higher profits for you.

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You'll learn more about more abou us and how we

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can work together at gasteau dashnow dot com and my

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personal site at Lescortes dot com. Getting into today's program

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we have with us today. Jeff Wetsler the co CEO

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of Transcend, a nationally recognized innovation organization, and an expert

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in learning and human potential. Jeff's experience spends twenty five

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years in business and education as a management consultant to

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top corporations, a learning facilitator for leaders, and as Chief

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Learning Officer at Teach for America. He is the author

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of Ask Tap into the Hidden Wisdom of People around

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You for unexpected breakthroughs in leadership and life, which we're

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talking about today. He joined it today from New York City.

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Jeff a hearty welcome to Working on Purpose.

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Thank you so much. It's wonderful to be with you.

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It's really great. As I mentioned before we got on air, Jeff,

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I really really applaud you for this beautiful book that

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you brought into the world.

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Thank you.

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This is really hard work and it's fresh, and there's

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a ton of wisdom in this thing. Well, if we

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employ five percent of what you put in that book, Jeff,

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we will be much better humans.

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Ah. That means a lot, and that is why I

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wrote the book.

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Good. You see we're starting off on the right foot exactly.

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All right, good, Well, let me do.

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This, Jeff.

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One of the things I like to do on this

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program on occasion is I like to read certain passages

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from the book as it makes sense. Great, and I

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wanted to start by saying a little bit about the

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bit of your foreword that was written by Amy Edmondson,

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because it situates the promise of your books. So let's

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do that first, she says. In my research and teaching

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at Harvard Business School, I have discovered that countless executives

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and NBA students are stuck in ways of communicating that

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prevent them from achieving the goals they care about. Most.

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The majority of them have succeeded in the past by

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knowing the right answers. Unfortunately, this has trained them in

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a habit of thinking that is deeply incurious, which in

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turn shapes their interactions with others in subtle but problematic ways.

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To move forward, they must renew their innate curiosity and

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focus it on new questions, while also learning how to

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listen deeply to the answers their questions generate. In short,

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they and all of us need to understand who and

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how to really learn from the people with whom they

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work and live. And so what I appreciated about your

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book so much, Jeff, is you're really teaching us the

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fine art of not just me able to ask those questions,

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but to situate a space where people one are compelled

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and want to respond and feel safe to respond so

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so much in that I just want to start with

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that foundation.

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I think, I think you isolated a great passage and

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to start with and put your finger on the core premise,

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which is that the people around us, that could be

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our colleagues, our investors, our customers, our friends, partners, they

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have such important information and wisdom and insight perspective feedback

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that if we could tap into it, if we could

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find out what they're really thinking and feeling and knowing,

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we would both be better off. We would make better

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decisions together, we would save a lot of time, we

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would innovate together, our relationships would be much closer. But

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that far too often we don't find that out because

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they keep it to themselves for all kinds of reasons

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which we can get into. And so the premise is,

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how do we do how do we unlock that? How

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do we tap into that hidden wisdom?

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Yeah, that's literally walking around every day all around us,

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you know, in any ways, probably screaming to try to

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come out right now.

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I'm right.

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So I just really got so much out of it,

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and I've been trying to put it to you. She'll

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be glad to know. I'm thrilled to hear that, yes, well,

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I do want to situate your background to including your

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time and work at Teach for America and what you

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do with Transcend and just hear how some of these

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experiences have contributed to you writing this book.

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Great, well, I've had three kind of pivotal experiences that

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have contributed to writing the book one. The first one

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was the first decade of my career at a management

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consulting company called Monitor Group. That's where I first crossed

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paths with Amy Edmondson. And at Monitor there was someone

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who was Amy's doctoral advisor and also a very important

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mentor to me named Chris Ardoris. And he was one of,

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as you probably know, one of the kind of pioneers

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of the field of organizational learning. And he was obsessed

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with this question that Amy alludes to, which is that

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how is it that sometimes the smartest, most successful people

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are the worst at learning from other people in the

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way that they communicate. And Chris not only studied that problem,

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but he actually tried to do something about it. And

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so he developed a set of tools and methods for

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how for an alternative way that leaders and managers and

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others and organizations can interact that would be far more

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likely to produce mutual learning. And so I had the

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benefit of learning from him and others around him who

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really brought his ideas to life, and then the chance

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to really teach those ideas to consultants and plans around

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the world, and I just saw how powerful they were.

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They Oftentimes people would say, like, these are life changing ideas,

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not just in my work, but in my personal life

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as well. And people would say, you know, this day

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of training or learning that we did was the most

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powerful day I've ever spent in something like this.

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And so I didn't originally invent any of this stuff.

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I just happened to inherit it from Chris, but I

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saw it was kind of like pure gold, and so

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that that was probably experience number one to say there's

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something really important here. Then I joined one of my clients,

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which was Teach for America. I became the Chief Learning Officer.

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I was responsible for the training and performance of thousands

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of teachers across the country, working in some of the

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highest needs communities, most under resourced communities in the country.

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And I realized that that was my first operating role.

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I saw some of the limitations of some of the

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tools and technology that I had learned at Monitor particularly.

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I thought I brought a lot of curiosity. I thought

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I was doing the right things. I thought I was

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asking a lot of the right questions. But what I

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failed to appreciate at the time is that I didn't

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create the conditions for the people around me to feel

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safe giving me their honest answers.

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Yeah, you talked about that in the book, I remember, yes.

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So sometimes I would discover way too late that something

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was about to blow up, our way off track, even

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though I had been asking questions all year long and

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getting answers like, you know, we're good. You know, a

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couple bumps, but we got it. What I did, what

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I only learned too late, is that I wasn't creating

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safety for people tell me the real truth.

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And so that.

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Started to come into the kind of toolkit and methodology

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and learning about what does that mean, particularly when you're

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working across lines of difference, whether those are difference in

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power and authority or race or gender. All of that

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was a play for me. I teach for America, and

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it really shaped me in a deeply crucible kind of way.

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I spent a decade there, and then my final decade

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so far has been at Transcend, which is an organization

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I co founded together with Alon Samoa that works with

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communities across the country who really want to modernize the

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education system, who want to rethink what's possible. How do

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we break out of this one hundred year old industrial

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model of education using design and community engagement. And the

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first thing that we always do anytime we're working with

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a community is ask and listen. Ask questions to young

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people what are your experiences in schools right now? But

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also encourage teachers and administrators and families to ask and listen.

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And it's always striking to me that when you actually

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listen to a young person and the ideas that they have,

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they know what to do, they know where we need

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to be going. And teachers will say things like, you know,

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in twenty years of teaching, no one has ever encouraged

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me just to sit down for forty five minutes with

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a student and really ask them about what their experiences.

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I've never done that before, and I cannot unhear what

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they told me about how bored they are, or how

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they feel, or how disengaged they feel. And just the

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act of asking and listening has proved so powerful in

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the methodologies that we use. It's also taught me a

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lot about being a leader of building an organization and

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all those kinds of things as well.

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So these experiences have really been pivotal for me.

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Just gold Jeff, you know, thank you for sharing that.

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A couple things, just really quick to remark on that

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what you shared. One it just how much I really

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appreciate the work that you're doing as somebody who's spent

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a lot of my life in education and also really

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seeing some major major caps in service today and what

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seems the world needs. And the second I want to

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applaud you know, I don't know if you consider what

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you're doing your purpose, do you?

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I believe so.

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I mean I think that I'm coming at my purpose

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from a lot of different angles, but the overarching purpose

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is to build just transformational learning experiences.

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M well, and what I want to celebrate there, Jeff.

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And one of the things I often talk about when

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I'm out speaking to audiences or working with with with

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organizations is, you know, the thing about purpose is you know,

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when we are true to it and we give ourselves

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over to it, we can see something through that little, small,

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little lens that no one else can see, and when

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we act on that, then we make the impact that

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we create. To me, that's what seems that's what you've done.

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That's what I'm trying to do. So thank you for

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lifting that up.

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Yeah, so welcome, And I want to celebrate that too,

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want more people to find that and find that beautiful

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space because we need the gifts that they have to

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make the world a better place.

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I agree everyone has a unique contribution.

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Absolutely, but I'm out to activate more of that because

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I want to. I want them to bring that so

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the world is a better place and I want them

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to be fulfilled in the process. Yes, So what I

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want to do next is I want to work through

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as many of the messages from the various chapters as

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we can. I obviously won't get to all of them,

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but just starting with the first one here. You know what,

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what stays unspoken? The essential question that we're addressing that

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in that first chapter is what do you most need

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to know that people are least likely to tell you?

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And when I when I first read the chapter, Chef,

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I was thinking of, you know, the emperor house no

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close who should tell him?

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You know, it's like that right, yes.

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And so I just want to talk through a little

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bit about just your perspective and some of the things

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that you want us to know that you shared in

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this first chapter.

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Yeah, so just referencing back to the time I spent

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it monitor and getting to work with Chris argeris. One

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of the methodologies that he introduced is something called the

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two column case. And so he would ask leaders to

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come into a workshop and bring an example of a

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dialogue that was representative of the kinds of conversations they

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wish they could be better at handling. And he did

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just say tell us about it. He had a very

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particular way of asking people to bring it in, and

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he said, draw a line down the sheet of paper,

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and on the right hand side of the line, I

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want you to actually give me data of what was

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said in the dialogue, so almost like a script in

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the play. Say I said this, she said this, I

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said this. You know, give me give me eight to

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ten lines of dialogue. And on the left hand side,

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what I want you to do is tell me what

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we're all of the unspoken thoughts and feelings that you

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were having during that conversation. And so it's basically like

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an X ray vision into someone's head and heart, but

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what's not being said? And I had the opportunity to

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look at hundreds and hundreds of these cases over the years,

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and it's just like an incredible treasure show of data

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to say what is actually not getting said to people.

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And of course there's some junk in there and some

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bad assumptions and you know whatever else, but there's also

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a set of really valuable information. And so in chapter

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one of the book, what I try to do is

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distill out what are four of the most common categories

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of unspoken information, because chances are each one of us

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has people around us in our lives that may be

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withholding one or more of.

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These categories of information as well. So I can just

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run through them if you want, I'd agree Number one is.

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The what they're struggling with, what challenges they're having. So

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like that example I shared about myself and Teach for America,

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people on my team were struggling with things they needed help,

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And if I had known what they were struggling with,

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I couldn't done something. I could have rolled up my sleeves,

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I could have helped them. And so all manner of

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struggles challenges what someone's really going through often stays unspoken.

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Second one is what they really think about a topic,

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a decision, an issue, a controversy, especially if their views

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feel unpopular to them, especially if they feel like you

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might already disagree with them. Chances are you're not going

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to hear the fototime. Third is their most important feedback

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and observations for you, really, what they think you could

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be doing better, what they think you're doing well, what

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suggestions would be a game changer for your performance, your development,

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all those kinds of things. And then the last one

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is their biggest, wildest, most audacious ideas that could be

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the breakthrough that your team needs, that your organization needs,

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that could be the major pivot, but that they might

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be thinking, this is going to sound too crazy, nobody

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wants to hear this. So when you add up those

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four categories and things, I think it's a treasure trove

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of insight and information that, to your point, is literally

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surrounds us all of the time.

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Yeah, so much lost potential. So that's definitely what I

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was so aware of in reading your book, Jeff, is

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just thinking about just how much one helping ourselves by

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tapping in information but then helping these other people too,

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that we might actually activate these things that they think

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are wildly impossib So there's just so much potential on this.

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But exactly all.

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Right, Well, let's grab our first break and then we'll

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continue on. I'm your host, doctor Elise Cortez. We brun

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the air. Jeff Wetsler, co CEO of Transcend, a nationally

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recognized innovation organization and an expert in learning and human potential.

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We've been talking a bit about where his book came

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from and why it's important. After great, we're going to

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continue a conversation and go deeper. We'll be right back.

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Doctor Elise Cortez is a management consultant specializing in meaning

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and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author. She helps companies

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visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired

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leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and

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commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite

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a lease to speak to your organization, please please visit

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her at Elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to

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get your employees working on purpose. This is working on

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purpose with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today

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or to open a conversation with Elise, send an email

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to Alise Alisee at Elisecortes dot com. Now back to

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Working on Purpose.

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Thanks for staying with us, and welcome back to Working

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on Purpose. I'm your host, doctor Elise Cortes. As I'm

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dedicated to helping create a world where people realize their

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potential at work and are led by inspirational leaders that

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help them find and contribute their greatness, and we do

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business at better in the world. I continue to research

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and write my own books, so my last one came

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out in March of twenty twenty three. It's called The

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Great Revitalization, How activating meeting the Purpose can radically and

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liven your business. And I wrote it to help leaders

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understand the lay of today's very discerning workforce, what do

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they want? And then I provide twenty two best practices

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to help you equip your organization to provide that for them.

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You can learn more about all my books at at

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leastcore test dot com or find them on Amazon if

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you are just joining us. My guest is Jeff Wetsler.

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He's the author of Ask Tap Into the Hidden Wisdom

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of People, around you for unexpected breakthroughs to leadership and life,

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which we've been talking about so far. So we want

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to go next is we've situated that there's so much

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potential of what we could actually learn from it if

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only we learned to ask in a good, compelling, appropriate way.

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But now let's talk about why people withhold? Why don't

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they tell us what they really think and feel?

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And you know, I can't obsessed with this question, especially

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as I realized what I was not finding out for

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people and how valuable it was, And I said to myself.

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Why aren't they telling me? I mean, this could be better.

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This is good for me, it's gonna be good for

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them too. We would all be better off if people

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would actually say what they really think and feel. So

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what's going on? What are the barriers?

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And you know, in the work that I did and

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the research that I did for the book, several barriers emerged.

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The number one barrier is fear of the impact of

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what they have to say. Maybe they think it's going

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to make them look bad in my eyes. Maybe they

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think I'm going to judge them, But maybe they're worried

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about the impact on me. Maybe they think that I'm

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going to crumble or you know, start to retaliate against them,

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or maybe they've worried about the impact on our relationship,

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and so fear of the impact is one of the

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biggest barriers that people that holds people back. But there

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are other barriers as well. So, for example, another one

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is that people are often busy tired, especially these days,

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and they just think like this is going to take

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a long time.

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I don't have the time and energy to do this, and.

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So it's just easier, faster, lower cognitive lift if I

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keep my mouth shut, then if I say something right.

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Another one is that sometimes people do want to say something,

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but they just don't have the right words to say it,

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they don't know how to say it in a way

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that's going to feel constructive, or maybe they actually just

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you know, I came across this interesting statistic where like

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people think it at nine hundred words a minute, but

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can only get out about one hundred and fifty words

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a minute. And so at any given moment, someone that

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we're speaking with has many more thoughts going through their

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head than what they're actually saying to us, not because

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they're maliciously withholding but literally just because the math doesn't work,

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so there's not enough time to get all the words out.

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But to me, the most interesting barrier and the most

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actionable one for us, is that people don't tell us

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because they don't realize we're interested. They don't actually think

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that we value what they have to say, and so

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they don't think that we value what they have to say.

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And it's going to take time, and there could be

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some risk to it. It's a natural decision to keep quiet. Yeah,

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and none of this would be a problem if we

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could actually read people's minds, you know, if we could

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just yes, what they are thinking and feeling annoying. And

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it turns out that we think we're a lot better

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at that than we are. And even some of the

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best and vice most conventional wisdom, things like read their

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body language, turns out research shows that doesn't make us

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any better.

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Try to put yourself in their shoes.

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Turns out that doesn't work either, because we're not actually

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in their shoes. There's only one thing that research has

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shown reliably allows us to figure out what people think

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pel a no, And of course that's asking them the question.

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But it's easier said than done.

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Yeah, for sure, for sure, it just really helps situate

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so that we really understand what people are up against

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for us to build to extract that precious wisdom from

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their minds and hearts. So at this point, let's do this, Jeff.

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Let's let's situate you have a whole ask approach, a

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whole ask model. So maybe it makes sense before we

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go further here, if you could just situate the steps

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to your approach.

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Yes.

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So they are five practices that I call them steps

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because they can often be helpful to be done sequentially,

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but honestly, any one of them will get you closer

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to learning from other people as well. The first one

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is called choes curiosity, and that's really awakening ourselves to

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truly want to understand what we can learn from someone

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else and recognize the limits of our own assumptions and stories,

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and really have a desire to learn. The second is

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called make it safe, and making it safe is all

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about lowering those barriers so that people feel more comfortable

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so it's easier for them to tell you their truth,

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especially hard truth. The third one is the heart of

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the ASK approach. It's called pose quality questions, and I

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define quality questions simply as questions that help us learn

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something important from someone else. And it turns out there's

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whole taxonomy of quality questions. There's different questions strategies that

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we can use just the same way. I imagine a

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surgeon would say, I've got different tools for what I

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want to get at as well, I've got the scalpel

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of this, and that same thing can be true for questions,

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but we never get taught what are the actual best

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questions strategies to you? So that's step three. Then once

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we pose the question, it all comes down to how

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are we listen? And so step four is called listen

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to learn, and it's really about understanding what is mosttential

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that people tell us in terms of really taking in

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what they're saying, but also what they're not saying as well.

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And then the fifth one is my favorite because I

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told you my purpose is all about learning, and so

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the fifth one is about how do we make meaning

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of what we heard?

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How do we process it? Called reflect and reconnect.

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How do we convert the information that we heard into

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insight and that insight into action, And that's what reflection

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helps us do. And I talk about it as not

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just reflect for yourself, but reconnect to the other person

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and let them know, this is what I learned from you,

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and thank.

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You and thank for the risk that you took as well.

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It's a complete cycle, yes, and to reward them for

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that right, For absolutely, I mean the courage and making

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the effort and going through with that, you know, and

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risking that you are going to take it badly. I

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just really love that step as well.

468
00:22:48.079 --> 00:22:50.599
So those are the five at a high level.

469
00:22:51.000 --> 00:22:53.519
Okay, well, let's dig into as many of those as

470
00:22:53.559 --> 00:22:56.519
we can as we have time. So then the first

471
00:22:56.680 --> 00:23:00.680
then step, or a part of it, is the curios approach.

472
00:23:01.200 --> 00:23:02.200
What that was add and.

473
00:23:02.720 --> 00:23:04.920
Yeah, so it's called choose curiosity. And I think the

474
00:23:04.960 --> 00:23:09.720
word choose is important because looking at curiosity not as

475
00:23:09.759 --> 00:23:11.680
something that's a trait that some people have or do

476
00:23:11.839 --> 00:23:13.400
other people don't have, or not as something that's a

477
00:23:13.400 --> 00:23:15.960
state of mind that we're in I'm feeling it or

478
00:23:16.000 --> 00:23:18.480
I'm not feeling it, but really as a choice, which

479
00:23:18.559 --> 00:23:21.319
means it's a decision that is always available to us.

480
00:23:21.720 --> 00:23:24.960
And when we make the decision to be curious, we're

481
00:23:24.960 --> 00:23:27.839
really asking ourselves one question, which is what can I

482
00:23:27.920 --> 00:23:31.599
learn from this person? And when we ask ourselves that question,

483
00:23:31.680 --> 00:23:35.359
it starts to shake loose the stories we have, the

484
00:23:35.359 --> 00:23:40.000
assumptions that we have. It gives us the space to

485
00:23:40.039 --> 00:23:42.200
be wondering about things like, well, what do they see

486
00:23:42.200 --> 00:23:45.200
that I don't see? What is a different way to

487
00:23:45.279 --> 00:23:47.200
look at what I'm seeing right now? How might someone

488
00:23:47.200 --> 00:23:49.079
else interpret it? Is there a different conclusion that I

489
00:23:49.079 --> 00:23:53.720
could be reaching? And the underlying conceptual model for choosing

490
00:23:53.759 --> 00:23:56.920
curiosity that I draw from is called the latter of understanding.

491
00:23:57.519 --> 00:24:00.559
It was also originally developed by Chris Ardoris, and it

492
00:24:00.599 --> 00:24:02.480
really helps us to see when we walk into a

493
00:24:02.519 --> 00:24:05.759
situation and there's a hole, we're swimming in all kinds

494
00:24:05.799 --> 00:24:08.119
of information and data, everything from what if someone say,

495
00:24:08.160 --> 00:24:09.640
to what they're wearing, to what they didn't say, to

496
00:24:09.680 --> 00:24:12.839
the room millions and millions of data points. We've got

497
00:24:12.839 --> 00:24:15.519
to just zero in on a tiny fraction of it,

498
00:24:15.559 --> 00:24:17.920
because otherwise we would be paralyzed trying to pay attention

499
00:24:17.960 --> 00:24:20.519
to everything, and we forget that we've zeroed in on

500
00:24:20.559 --> 00:24:24.319
a tiny fraction of it and not the totality, and

501
00:24:24.359 --> 00:24:26.039
so we think that this tiny fraction of what we

502
00:24:26.640 --> 00:24:29.880
will be zeroed in on is reality. And then, of course,

503
00:24:29.880 --> 00:24:32.680
as human beings, we immediately zip up this ladder and

504
00:24:32.680 --> 00:24:35.039
we climb rung by rung by rung to interpret it

505
00:24:35.039 --> 00:24:37.519
and make it mean something and then have a story

506
00:24:37.519 --> 00:24:39.119
about it and then say we've got to do this next.

507
00:24:39.680 --> 00:24:43.440
And that happens in microseconds outside of our conscious awareness,

508
00:24:44.039 --> 00:24:47.039
and so choosing curiosity is really about slowing down that process,

509
00:24:47.400 --> 00:24:49.920
walking back down the ladder and saying, what else might

510
00:24:49.960 --> 00:24:52.519
I have overlooked, what's another way to interpret it?

511
00:24:52.559 --> 00:24:52.960
And so on.

512
00:24:53.799 --> 00:24:57.319
And once we've done that, it makes the ability to

513
00:24:57.359 --> 00:25:00.279
ask questions come from a much more authentic place, because

514
00:25:00.279 --> 00:25:03.799
it's not a gimmick. It's really coming from a place of, Oh,

515
00:25:03.920 --> 00:25:05.720
I realize there's a lot more to know that I

516
00:25:05.759 --> 00:25:08.279
don't know right now, and so I want to understand

517
00:25:08.400 --> 00:25:11.759
and even that just that being in that state of curiosity,

518
00:25:12.599 --> 00:25:15.720
I think radiates an energy that causes people to want

519
00:25:15.799 --> 00:25:17.519
to share with us.

520
00:25:18.079 --> 00:25:20.720
Yeah, you know, like I can. I certainly can imagine this,

521
00:25:20.920 --> 00:25:24.759
you know, this response to being wow, Jeff, I never

522
00:25:24.920 --> 00:25:27.559
saw the way. I never imagine that when I am

523
00:25:27.599 --> 00:25:29.960
presenting and I say these things, they could actually be

524
00:25:30.400 --> 00:25:32.799
totally rubbing people in the wrong way. That never crossed

525
00:25:32.839 --> 00:25:35.799
my mind. Wow, thank you so much. I mean so

526
00:25:36.039 --> 00:25:40.079
the other person's like, oh, one, thank goodness, and two

527
00:25:40.200 --> 00:25:42.839
now they're leaning forward because you have recognized something in it.

528
00:25:42.960 --> 00:25:48.039
So I really also really embrace choosing curiosity. Beautiful, Jeff. Okay.

529
00:25:48.079 --> 00:25:51.319
So now though, we've got to really taken another step

530
00:25:51.359 --> 00:25:53.519
further here, and that is to really make it safe

531
00:25:53.519 --> 00:25:55.440
for them. And so how do we make it easier

532
00:25:55.440 --> 00:25:58.240
for people to tell us the really hard things?

533
00:25:58.759 --> 00:26:01.480
Yes, and so in this part of the book, I

534
00:26:01.519 --> 00:26:03.680
talk about what I call a safety cycle, which is

535
00:26:03.680 --> 00:26:06.839
that how do you create psychological safety at the interpersonal level.

536
00:26:07.519 --> 00:26:09.559
The first part of that is about creating connection with

537
00:26:09.599 --> 00:26:11.279
the other person. It's hard to have any kind of

538
00:26:11.319 --> 00:26:13.839
safety if we don't if we're not connected with each other.

539
00:26:14.160 --> 00:26:16.200
And some of that is about making sure that we

540
00:26:16.400 --> 00:26:18.920
have built the connection far before the time when we're

541
00:26:18.960 --> 00:26:21.759
actually trying to have this conversation and learned, so dig

542
00:26:21.799 --> 00:26:27.240
your well away before you're thirsty, but thank you. Some

543
00:26:27.319 --> 00:26:31.359
of it is about the where and when do we

544
00:26:31.400 --> 00:26:33.880
actually connect as well, and so you know, as part

545
00:26:33.920 --> 00:26:36.079
of the interview the interviews for the book, I talked

546
00:26:36.119 --> 00:26:41.160
to CEOs, and I chose CEOs because CEOs are notorious

547
00:26:41.160 --> 00:26:43.880
for not hearing the truth from people, for people telling

548
00:26:43.960 --> 00:26:45.359
them what they think they want to hear, what's going

549
00:26:45.440 --> 00:26:47.920
to make them look good? And I said to the CEOs,

550
00:26:48.480 --> 00:26:51.200
how did you get the truth out of people, especially

551
00:26:51.240 --> 00:26:53.920
people multiple layers away from you? And one of the

552
00:26:53.960 --> 00:26:57.359
common themes was about creating connection. And they said, I

553
00:26:57.400 --> 00:26:59.839
would never invite someone to my office and make them

554
00:26:59.880 --> 00:27:03.200
sit across the big intimidating CEO deesk from me and

555
00:27:03.319 --> 00:27:05.359
assume that they're going to feel safe or comfortable telling

556
00:27:05.400 --> 00:27:08.039
me the truth. No, I'm going to do go where

557
00:27:08.039 --> 00:27:10.000
they want to go. I'm gonna go to We're gonna

558
00:27:10.000 --> 00:27:11.599
have lunch together, We're gonna go to the cafeteria, We're

559
00:27:11.599 --> 00:27:13.119
gonna take a walk, we'll sit on a couch, we'll

560
00:27:13.160 --> 00:27:13.960
do a ride along.

561
00:27:13.759 --> 00:27:14.279
Whatever it is.

562
00:27:14.559 --> 00:27:18.599
And there was no single common answer other than wherever

563
00:27:18.640 --> 00:27:21.160
it is most comfortable for them to go. And so

564
00:27:21.240 --> 00:27:23.039
part of that is creating I find that my true

565
00:27:23.119 --> 00:27:25.160
my own personal life too. If I want to actually

566
00:27:25.160 --> 00:27:27.880
find out for my teenage daughter what's going on at school,

567
00:27:28.039 --> 00:27:29.559
it's not going to happen when she gets home from

568
00:27:29.559 --> 00:27:31.839
school and I say how is school or over dinner.

569
00:27:31.880 --> 00:27:33.839
It's going to be when she wants to talk about it,

570
00:27:33.880 --> 00:27:36.160
which is usually eleven PM, when she's done with her

571
00:27:36.160 --> 00:27:37.839
homework and done talking to her friends, and I want

572
00:27:37.839 --> 00:27:40.039
to be asleep, but that's when she wants to connect,

573
00:27:40.079 --> 00:27:41.400
and so I want to learn from her. That's what

574
00:27:41.519 --> 00:27:42.920
I need to that's what I need to do.

575
00:27:43.559 --> 00:27:45.519
Yeah, that's all the first part of.

576
00:27:45.440 --> 00:27:49.400
The safety cycle. I'm creating connection. Once we create connection,

577
00:27:50.240 --> 00:27:52.279
then it's all about opening up. If we want to

578
00:27:52.279 --> 00:27:55.480
ask other people to open up to us, we got

579
00:27:55.480 --> 00:27:56.160
to open up first.

580
00:27:56.240 --> 00:27:57.359
We got to show our cards first.

581
00:27:57.359 --> 00:27:59.200
And it can be as simple as opening up about

582
00:27:59.200 --> 00:28:02.599
why I'm asking the question yes, or it could be

583
00:28:02.759 --> 00:28:06.640
as opening up even vulnerably, like here's what I'm struggling with,

584
00:28:06.839 --> 00:28:07.920
here's what I'm working on, here's.

585
00:28:07.799 --> 00:28:09.240
What I realized I don't know. Here's why I need

586
00:28:09.279 --> 00:28:09.680
your help.

587
00:28:10.200 --> 00:28:12.880
The more that we can open up in a vulnerable way,

588
00:28:13.319 --> 00:28:15.519
the more it signals to the other person that it's

589
00:28:15.519 --> 00:28:16.799
safer for them to do the same thing.

590
00:28:17.240 --> 00:28:18.480
Yes. Yes.

591
00:28:19.079 --> 00:28:22.119
And then the third one is what I call radio resilience,

592
00:28:22.599 --> 00:28:25.519
which is to essentially send the message to the other person,

593
00:28:26.319 --> 00:28:31.279
I can handle your truth. I can actually uh, you know,

594
00:28:31.960 --> 00:28:34.400
it's not going to shatter me if I might have

595
00:28:34.440 --> 00:28:36.559
an emotional reaction, but if I do, I'm not going

596
00:28:36.640 --> 00:28:38.559
to hold you responsible for that reaction. I'm going to

597
00:28:38.599 --> 00:28:40.680
own my own reactions. It can sound as simple as

598
00:28:40.720 --> 00:28:43.920
simple as saying something to someone like, hey, if I

599
00:28:43.960 --> 00:28:46.559
were in your shoes, I might be totally frustrated right now.

600
00:28:47.279 --> 00:28:49.039
I'm you know, and if that's what you're feeling, I'd

601
00:28:49.079 --> 00:28:50.519
love to know that. Or I might be in whatever

602
00:28:50.519 --> 00:28:53.839
it is, whatever, whatever kind of lets the other person

603
00:28:53.920 --> 00:28:57.359
know this is discussible. I'm you know, I'm resilient to

604
00:28:57.359 --> 00:29:00.799
all of us. So creating connection, opening up, radiating resilience

605
00:29:01.160 --> 00:29:04.279
are three really important parts of making it safer for

606
00:29:04.359 --> 00:29:05.480
someone to share with us.

607
00:29:06.119 --> 00:29:08.599
I really like that really resiltes the other one's really

608
00:29:08.720 --> 00:29:10.759
you know, make intuitive sense to me. But this notion

609
00:29:10.839 --> 00:29:13.400
of look, I whatever you say to me, and even

610
00:29:13.440 --> 00:29:16.839
if I get emotional with what you tell me, it's okay.

611
00:29:17.039 --> 00:29:18.279
I think that is so powerful.

612
00:29:18.319 --> 00:29:22.359
Jeff, thank you. Yeah, I found it makes a huge difference.

613
00:29:22.799 --> 00:29:25.559
Yeah. Well now let's get into people are like, okay, okay,

614
00:29:25.599 --> 00:29:29.799
you've convinced me I need to do this, right, that's curious. Yeah, Now,

615
00:29:29.960 --> 00:29:32.200
now what do I do So now we get into

616
00:29:32.279 --> 00:29:35.240
the step of posing those quality questions. And I found

617
00:29:35.759 --> 00:29:37.680
you have a beautiful set of lists of questions in

618
00:29:37.680 --> 00:29:40.559
your book that really help guide. But let's talk about

619
00:29:40.559 --> 00:29:42.839
a little bit about how can we create and pose

620
00:29:42.920 --> 00:29:44.079
those quality questions.

621
00:29:44.519 --> 00:29:46.279
So I think first of all, we needed to really

622
00:29:46.319 --> 00:29:49.240
distinguish between what's a quality question and what I call

623
00:29:49.279 --> 00:29:50.039
a krummy question.

624
00:29:50.519 --> 00:29:52.319
Yes, you do that beautiful in your book.

625
00:29:52.640 --> 00:29:53.960
I love it rubby questions.

626
00:29:54.000 --> 00:29:56.799
I think a lot of what what you know passes

627
00:29:56.799 --> 00:29:59.759
for questions I would call krummey questions. These could be

628
00:29:59.799 --> 00:30:02.359
ques questions that are just clumsy, Like you know, sometimes

629
00:30:02.400 --> 00:30:05.000
when people explain something and then they'll add, you know, isn't.

630
00:30:04.799 --> 00:30:05.960
That right at the end?

631
00:30:06.559 --> 00:30:08.720
I think sometimes people want to know you actually with them,

632
00:30:08.720 --> 00:30:10.440
but when they say it like that, I think it's

633
00:30:10.480 --> 00:30:12.160
clumsy because it makes it hard for the.

634
00:30:12.160 --> 00:30:13.519
Other person to disagree with him.

635
00:30:13.759 --> 00:30:16.079
Or of course, there's the sneaky questions that are you know,

636
00:30:16.119 --> 00:30:18.039
like what a lawyer would would ask people to try

637
00:30:18.039 --> 00:30:19.119
to get them to admit something.

638
00:30:19.160 --> 00:30:21.359
But we use sneaky questions all the time. Wouldn't it

639
00:30:21.359 --> 00:30:23.160
be better if we waited to do this a little.

640
00:30:22.920 --> 00:30:25.200
You know, those questions make it harder and people can

641
00:30:25.200 --> 00:30:27.920
feel manipulated. And then there's a tax questions, But quality

642
00:30:28.000 --> 00:30:31.680
questions really help us learn something important from someone, And

643
00:30:31.799 --> 00:30:33.720
there's a whole taxonomy. I'll give you just a couple

644
00:30:33.799 --> 00:30:36.079
examples if you want. I mean, one of my favorite

645
00:30:36.240 --> 00:30:40.039
strategies in the taxonomy is one that's called request reactions.

646
00:30:40.799 --> 00:30:43.720
And this is just very simply saying to the other person, hey,

647
00:30:43.720 --> 00:30:45.839
here's what I think, or here's here's some feedback, or

648
00:30:45.839 --> 00:30:48.240
here's what I'd love to ask you to do, but

649
00:30:48.279 --> 00:30:49.000
I want to check what.

650
00:30:48.920 --> 00:30:51.960
Are your reactions to that? How does that sit with you,

651
00:30:52.000 --> 00:30:53.640
How does that strike you, how does that land with you?

652
00:30:53.680 --> 00:30:54.559
What might I be missing?

653
00:30:54.880 --> 00:30:58.960
Any of those kinds of questions are questions that really

654
00:30:59.000 --> 00:31:00.799
open it up for the person to let you know

655
00:31:01.240 --> 00:31:04.400
what is there thinking about your thinking? And I think

656
00:31:04.519 --> 00:31:08.920
so often we assume that if someone disagrees or it's

657
00:31:08.960 --> 00:31:11.640
not making sense, that they'll tell us. But for all

658
00:31:11.680 --> 00:31:14.759
the reasons we just discussed around lack of safety, oftentimes

659
00:31:14.759 --> 00:31:17.279
they don't tell us that, and so we walk away

660
00:31:17.319 --> 00:31:19.839
thinking we're good, and they're walking away thinking I totally

661
00:31:19.839 --> 00:31:21.599
disagree with them. And if we had only asked some

662
00:31:21.759 --> 00:31:24.000
version of what are your reactions to that, we would

663
00:31:24.119 --> 00:31:26.640
significantly increase the chances that we would actually find that

664
00:31:26.680 --> 00:31:29.000
out and could course correct and get on the same

665
00:31:29.000 --> 00:31:32.839
page much sooner than that. Sometimes I think we we

666
00:31:32.920 --> 00:31:36.160
intuitively ask a question like does that make sense, which

667
00:31:36.200 --> 00:31:38.759
is a version of requesting reactions. But I would call

668
00:31:38.839 --> 00:31:41.200
that a crummy question because it's very hard for the

669
00:31:41.200 --> 00:31:44.640
other person to say, no, that doesn't totally make sense,

670
00:31:44.720 --> 00:31:47.240
or people usually just nod when someone says does that

671
00:31:47.279 --> 00:31:50.720
makes sense? So that's, you know, that's one category of

672
00:31:51.440 --> 00:31:55.440
quality questions. Another category of quality questions that I love

673
00:31:55.960 --> 00:31:57.799
is one that I just call see what they see,

674
00:31:58.640 --> 00:32:00.480
which is really if someone has shared with your point

675
00:32:00.519 --> 00:32:03.079
of view and you started to dig deeper and say,

676
00:32:03.519 --> 00:32:05.240
tell me more about how you got to that. Or

677
00:32:05.960 --> 00:32:10.240
the next question can be are there some examples or

678
00:32:10.240 --> 00:32:12.759
what's a story that you have that would you know

679
00:32:12.759 --> 00:32:14.400
that would really help me see how you got to that?

680
00:32:15.039 --> 00:32:17.039
Because people know things in all kinds of ways. Sometimes

681
00:32:17.079 --> 00:32:21.200
there's you know, quantitative data points, sometimes there's intuition, sometimes

682
00:32:21.200 --> 00:32:22.119
there's lived experiences.

683
00:32:22.400 --> 00:32:23.920
All of that is valid in.

684
00:32:23.920 --> 00:32:28.000
Terms of informing people's points of view, but oftentimes they

685
00:32:28.039 --> 00:32:31.200
will not share that with us unless we're actually explicitly

686
00:32:31.200 --> 00:32:32.799
inviting them to help us see what they see.

687
00:32:33.039 --> 00:32:33.880
So those are two of.

688
00:32:34.359 --> 00:32:38.640
About a dozen question strategies and the taxonomy that when

689
00:32:38.680 --> 00:32:40.799
I've learned, have made a huge difference for me, and

690
00:32:40.960 --> 00:32:42.720
I wish everyone could learn them as well.

691
00:32:43.599 --> 00:32:44.920
Well, we can just go to your book for that.

692
00:32:44.960 --> 00:32:48.039
Thank you very much. All right, let's grab our next break.

693
00:32:48.160 --> 00:32:50.160
I'm your host, doctor Early s quore tees what on

694
00:32:50.200 --> 00:32:52.960
the air with Jeff Wetsler. He's the co CEO of Transcend,

695
00:32:53.279 --> 00:32:56.880
a nationally recognized innovation organization, and an expert in learning

696
00:32:56.880 --> 00:32:59.480
and human potential. We've been talking about the steps of

697
00:32:59.519 --> 00:33:02.000
his ask model. After the break, we're going to get

698
00:33:02.000 --> 00:33:04.720
into the next step, which is really learning to listen

699
00:33:04.799 --> 00:33:07.519
to learn. When we actually get that feedback, we want

700
00:33:07.519 --> 00:33:09.599
to be able to listen to learn from it. See

701
00:33:09.599 --> 00:33:10.599
what this will be right back.

702
00:33:26.440 --> 00:33:30.000
Doctor Elise Cortes is a management consultant specializing in meaning

703
00:33:30.079 --> 00:33:33.880
and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author, she helps companies

704
00:33:33.960 --> 00:33:37.279
visioneer for a greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose

705
00:33:37.319 --> 00:33:41.680
inspired leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment performance

706
00:33:41.720 --> 00:33:44.759
and commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to

707
00:33:44.799 --> 00:33:47.720
invite a lease to speak to your organization, please visit

708
00:33:47.759 --> 00:33:50.960
her at elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to

709
00:33:50.960 --> 00:33:59.480
get your employees working on purpose. This is Working on

710
00:33:59.559 --> 00:34:03.119
Purpose with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today

711
00:34:03.279 --> 00:34:06.000
or to open a conversation with Elise, send an email

712
00:34:06.079 --> 00:34:11.760
to Elise alisee at elisecortes dot com. Now back to

713
00:34:11.880 --> 00:34:13.000
working on Purpose.

714
00:34:18.039 --> 00:34:19.760
Thanks for staying with us, and welcome back to Working

715
00:34:19.800 --> 00:34:22.519
on Purpose. I'm your host, doctor Elise Cortes. I mentioned

716
00:34:22.559 --> 00:34:24.639
in the last break that my last book came out

717
00:34:24.639 --> 00:34:27.239
in March at twenty twenty three, called The Great Revitalization.

718
00:34:27.679 --> 00:34:29.519
What I did for you is I created a three

719
00:34:29.599 --> 00:34:32.440
page free assessment that you can take off my website.

720
00:34:32.840 --> 00:34:35.280
It will help you understand the extent to which your

721
00:34:35.320 --> 00:34:38.639
current culture is actually medium the discerning needs of today's workforce.

722
00:34:38.960 --> 00:34:42.119
You can find it at gustodeshnow dot com if you

723
00:34:42.159 --> 00:34:44.320
are just joining us. My guest is Jeff Wetsler. He's

724
00:34:44.360 --> 00:34:47.039
the author of Ask Tap into the Hidden Wisdom of

725
00:34:47.079 --> 00:34:50.800
people around you for unexpected breakthroughs in leadership and life,

726
00:34:50.800 --> 00:34:54.599
which we've been talking about today. So this next step here,

727
00:34:54.639 --> 00:34:57.480
of course, is listen to learn. So let's just model

728
00:34:57.519 --> 00:35:00.280
what that doesn't look like. When somebody gives you feed back,

729
00:35:00.360 --> 00:35:02.159
you don't say that's not right, that's not.

730
00:35:02.199 --> 00:35:02.679
It at all.

731
00:35:03.920 --> 00:35:07.760
That is a very good example of what it does

732
00:35:07.800 --> 00:35:08.280
not look like.

733
00:35:09.119 --> 00:35:10.920
Okay, so let's talk about what it does look like.

734
00:35:11.199 --> 00:35:13.679
But there's also many more subtle examples too, like you're

735
00:35:13.760 --> 00:35:15.360
just sort of saying like, okay, got it and let's

736
00:35:15.400 --> 00:35:19.639
move on, and the other person doesn't know, or saying, have

737
00:35:19.679 --> 00:35:22.239
I got some feedback for you too, So there's there's

738
00:35:22.280 --> 00:35:25.719
all kinds of I would say non examples of listening

739
00:35:25.719 --> 00:35:28.079
to learn. But really listening to learn is about about

740
00:35:28.119 --> 00:35:32.079
truly taking in what's most essential from someone. And one

741
00:35:32.119 --> 00:35:36.320
of the other amazing mentors that I had the opportunity

742
00:35:36.400 --> 00:35:40.280
to work with a monitor was someone named David Kanter,

743
00:35:40.639 --> 00:35:43.599
who was one of the pioneers in family systems therapy,

744
00:35:44.280 --> 00:35:48.239
and then he brought his tools for working with families

745
00:35:48.320 --> 00:35:51.159
to teams and organizations as well. And one of the

746
00:35:51.159 --> 00:35:53.239
things that he taught me is that people speak in

747
00:35:53.280 --> 00:35:57.599
different languages. Sometimes people speak in the language of content

748
00:35:58.519 --> 00:36:01.480
and they're actually saying here's the facts, the figures, the arguments,

749
00:36:01.519 --> 00:36:03.840
the claims, the propositions, all those kinds of things. That's

750
00:36:03.880 --> 00:36:06.159
that's what's going on. But sometimes people speak in the

751
00:36:06.239 --> 00:36:09.840
language of emotion. Here's what I'm feeling. I'm upset, I'm frustrated,

752
00:36:09.880 --> 00:36:12.280
I'm sad, I'm angry, I'm happy without all the things.

753
00:36:13.119 --> 00:36:17.400
And sometimes people speak in the language of action. It's

754
00:36:17.400 --> 00:36:19.079
not about what I'm feeling or what I'm saying, it's

755
00:36:19.079 --> 00:36:22.440
what I'm doing. You know, I'm supporting, I'm pushing back,

756
00:36:22.559 --> 00:36:25.880
I'm raising questions, I'm repeating myself. And so if we

757
00:36:25.960 --> 00:36:28.280
really want to listen to what's going on, we need

758
00:36:28.320 --> 00:36:32.079
to learn how to listen through all three of those channels, content, emotion,

759
00:36:32.719 --> 00:36:36.480
and action. And when you do that, I think it's

760
00:36:36.599 --> 00:36:40.239
kind of like when you know a music aficionado trains

761
00:36:40.280 --> 00:36:43.800
themselves to listen for the vocals and listens for the percussion,

762
00:36:43.800 --> 00:36:46.519
and listens for the harmony, and is able to isolate

763
00:36:46.519 --> 00:36:47.960
each one, but then is able to put it back

764
00:36:48.000 --> 00:36:51.079
together in a way that creates a much much richer

765
00:36:51.480 --> 00:36:54.239
understanding of the whole piece. And we can we can

766
00:36:54.239 --> 00:36:56.599
train ourselves to listen for all three of those things

767
00:36:56.639 --> 00:36:59.079
as well. So that's that's the first piece. How do

768
00:36:59.079 --> 00:37:02.039
we triple them of information that we're taking in by

769
00:37:02.079 --> 00:37:07.719
listening through content, emotion and action. And then the strategies

770
00:37:07.719 --> 00:37:09.880
for doing that, there's quite a number of them. It

771
00:37:10.079 --> 00:37:15.199
starts with just becoming quiet and I call it, you know,

772
00:37:15.280 --> 00:37:18.039
zip the lip, but just like giving the other person

773
00:37:18.079 --> 00:37:20.880
actually the space to say something and not jumping in

774
00:37:20.920 --> 00:37:24.239
and feel filling the vacuum immediately, but really sitting there

775
00:37:24.280 --> 00:37:27.599
quietly and listening. A couple of the most powerful ones

776
00:37:28.239 --> 00:37:31.519
I'll just lift up. One is one is called paraphrase

777
00:37:31.559 --> 00:37:34.239
and test, and this is just simply saying back to

778
00:37:34.239 --> 00:37:35.639
the other person he had this is what I think

779
00:37:35.679 --> 00:37:36.480
I heard you say.

780
00:37:37.039 --> 00:37:38.440
Did I get that right? Or what did I miss?

781
00:37:39.599 --> 00:37:43.960
And that does That's to me, like that's the magic

782
00:37:44.039 --> 00:37:47.239
question because it does multiple things. One is it lets

783
00:37:47.280 --> 00:37:48.960
you know if you got it right. And I will

784
00:37:48.960 --> 00:37:51.119
say at least half the time when I say that

785
00:37:51.119 --> 00:37:53.000
to someone, they'll say, well, that was kind of part

786
00:37:53.000 --> 00:37:54.400
of what I was saying, but that's not the whole thing.

787
00:37:55.000 --> 00:37:56.199
Now that you set it back to me, that is

788
00:37:56.199 --> 00:37:58.320
what I said, but what actually meant was this, So

789
00:37:58.360 --> 00:38:01.760
you get much better information when you do that, but

790
00:38:01.800 --> 00:38:04.400
it also sends the message to the other person how

791
00:38:04.480 --> 00:38:07.119
much you care about them that I've taken the time

792
00:38:07.719 --> 00:38:11.639
to actually use my own breath, my own words to

793
00:38:11.760 --> 00:38:14.119
check if I really get where you're coming from. That's

794
00:38:14.159 --> 00:38:16.440
a message of value to the other person as well.

795
00:38:16.559 --> 00:38:18.960
And then I also find that intense conversations, it can

796
00:38:19.039 --> 00:38:21.559
change the tempo, it can just slow things down. Rather

797
00:38:21.639 --> 00:38:24.480
than a point counterpoint back and forth. When one person says,

798
00:38:24.480 --> 00:38:26.079
wait a minute, before I just come back at you,

799
00:38:26.119 --> 00:38:28.280
I want to check that I hear you right. So

800
00:38:28.480 --> 00:38:31.679
if you take nothing away from this conversation, I would say,

801
00:38:31.719 --> 00:38:35.239
just paraphrase and check if you understood. Yeah, And I'll

802
00:38:35.239 --> 00:38:38.159
share maybe one other which is what I call just

803
00:38:38.199 --> 00:38:40.880
pull a thread, which is that when someone says something

804
00:38:40.960 --> 00:38:44.119
to you before you move on, just keep pulling. And

805
00:38:44.559 --> 00:38:48.320
part of I learned this from interviewing psychotherapists who would

806
00:38:48.360 --> 00:38:50.559
talk about this thing that they call the doorknob moment,

807
00:38:51.360 --> 00:38:53.119
which is that at the you know, right at the

808
00:38:53.239 --> 00:38:55.519
very end of a therapy session, you know, like minute

809
00:38:56.159 --> 00:38:59.280
forty nine and forty five seconds out of a fifty

810
00:38:59.320 --> 00:39:02.199
minute therapyt session, just as someone's getting up at their

811
00:39:02.320 --> 00:39:06.079
hand on the doorknob. That's when they say, by the way,

812
00:39:06.239 --> 00:39:09.800
I'm having an affair, or I'm being investigated by the government,

813
00:39:09.880 --> 00:39:11.599
or And the question is like, why did they not

814
00:39:11.679 --> 00:39:14.360
say this for the entire you know, near hour that

815
00:39:14.400 --> 00:39:17.079
we were together, And it could be you know, I

816
00:39:17.119 --> 00:39:18.360
asked the therapist and they said it could be a

817
00:39:18.400 --> 00:39:19.880
number of things. What is they want to They're not

818
00:39:19.920 --> 00:39:22.440
sure how the therapist would react. Maybe they're building up

819
00:39:22.480 --> 00:39:25.280
the courage. Someone recently told me. Another reason is they

820
00:39:25.320 --> 00:39:26.880
might stay to the varian because they want the therapist

821
00:39:26.920 --> 00:39:29.000
to be thinking about them all week until the next week.

822
00:39:29.559 --> 00:39:30.159
Who knows.

823
00:39:30.239 --> 00:39:32.800
But the point is that the most important thing that

824
00:39:32.840 --> 00:39:35.559
someone has to say to you is often not the

825
00:39:35.599 --> 00:39:38.480
first thing that they say, the answer question. And so

826
00:39:38.639 --> 00:39:41.320
often we think we've asked the question, they've answered the question. Okay,

827
00:39:41.400 --> 00:39:42.440
let's keep going. We're good.

828
00:39:42.920 --> 00:39:44.320
But really you've got to pull the thread.

829
00:39:44.880 --> 00:39:46.840
And an easy way to pull the thread is just

830
00:39:46.880 --> 00:39:49.400
to simply say, can you say more about that?

831
00:39:49.679 --> 00:39:50.719
What else? What else?

832
00:39:51.480 --> 00:39:53.960
And sometimes when I'm with my own team and more brainstorming,

833
00:39:54.199 --> 00:39:56.639
or I'm asking them a question, I'll just say, cool,

834
00:39:56.679 --> 00:39:59.159
that's an amazing idea. What else, and I'll say to them,

835
00:39:59.199 --> 00:40:01.480
I'm gonna keep asking what else until you tell me

836
00:40:01.559 --> 00:40:03.360
you're out of ideas because they keep getting better.

837
00:40:03.440 --> 00:40:04.199
Time I asking about it.

838
00:40:04.760 --> 00:40:07.639
Yeah, So just you know, continuing to pull that thread

839
00:40:07.679 --> 00:40:09.639
is another really important listening strategy.

840
00:40:10.920 --> 00:40:11.239
Awesome.

841
00:40:11.280 --> 00:40:13.039
I just want to add one more really quick, because

842
00:40:13.039 --> 00:40:14.480
I do want to go on here, and that is

843
00:40:14.519 --> 00:40:17.559
they want to watch your face. So as you're as

844
00:40:17.559 --> 00:40:20.920
you're getting this feedback and you're like, you know, you're

845
00:40:21.079 --> 00:40:23.719
screwing up your face because it hurts, it's it's painful,

846
00:40:23.840 --> 00:40:25.880
or maybe you don't agree or whatever I mean. So

847
00:40:26.000 --> 00:40:28.800
I really think that advice of being aware of what

848
00:40:28.880 --> 00:40:30.679
is your face saying you know, are you are you

849
00:40:30.719 --> 00:40:34.360
starting to girt your teeth, and it's your fist getting

850
00:40:35.159 --> 00:40:37.199
going into a going into a fist, and these are

851
00:40:37.239 --> 00:40:38.719
all things that might just tell you the person I

852
00:40:38.760 --> 00:40:40.920
am not going any further here.

853
00:40:41.000 --> 00:40:43.440
So just want the CEO that I spoke with, Chuck

854
00:40:43.480 --> 00:40:47.320
halfuh he said, he he he He intentionally tries to

855
00:40:47.400 --> 00:40:50.599
keep kind of like a neutral receptive yes, you know,

856
00:40:50.719 --> 00:40:54.320
mildly positive reaction facial expression. And by the way, that

857
00:40:54.440 --> 00:40:57.320
positive reactions can also be as dangerous as the negative

858
00:40:57.320 --> 00:40:59.559
reactions too. Yes, people saying, well, what did I just

859
00:40:59.559 --> 00:41:01.679
say that? They themselves you know, happen whatever. So just

860
00:41:01.719 --> 00:41:04.880
being receptive and watching your facial reactions. And if you're

861
00:41:04.920 --> 00:41:07.800
the kind of person whose neutral face might look like

862
00:41:07.960 --> 00:41:09.760
they are upset, you.

863
00:41:09.679 --> 00:41:12.119
Can say that. Like I'll say it people sometimes.

864
00:41:11.800 --> 00:41:14.039
If you see me and I'm really like scrunching out

865
00:41:14.039 --> 00:41:16.960
my brow, like that just means I'm concentrated, don't you know,

866
00:41:17.559 --> 00:41:19.519
I'm not angry at you. And so you can be

867
00:41:19.519 --> 00:41:21.960
aware of how your face can get can get interpreted

868
00:41:22.000 --> 00:41:22.360
as well.

869
00:41:22.679 --> 00:41:27.199
So powerful, so powerful. Okay, So we were coming on

870
00:41:27.239 --> 00:41:29.679
to the last step here, which is, as you said before,

871
00:41:29.719 --> 00:41:33.639
your favorite reflect and reconnect. So this is the essential question,

872
00:41:33.719 --> 00:41:35.760
is how do you turn talk into action?

873
00:41:36.440 --> 00:41:39.960
Yeah, and so I think a lot of people think

874
00:41:40.000 --> 00:41:42.960
that reflection is this kind of like esoteric thing.

875
00:41:43.000 --> 00:41:45.480
I've got to go on a meditation or treat in

876
00:41:45.480 --> 00:41:46.960
the woods to reflect.

877
00:41:47.760 --> 00:41:51.079
But reflection can be very practical. And so I talk

878
00:41:51.119 --> 00:41:53.079
about a method I call sift it and turn it.

879
00:41:53.920 --> 00:41:55.800
Sift it is just simply to say, you know, if

880
00:41:55.840 --> 00:41:59.519
someone told you twelve things in a conversation as yourself,

881
00:42:00.000 --> 00:42:02.360
which ones are the most important ones to really sit with.

882
00:42:02.880 --> 00:42:05.880
Sometimes what people tell us is including feedback, is not

883
00:42:06.000 --> 00:42:09.119
all necessary or important for us to take in. Sometimes

884
00:42:09.119 --> 00:42:11.880
it's biased, sometimes it's not. You know, it's not healthy

885
00:42:11.880 --> 00:42:14.840
for us, And so sift it and ask yourself what

886
00:42:14.679 --> 00:42:17.239
of what I heard them say really matters the most?

887
00:42:17.519 --> 00:42:20.079
And sometimes it's helpful to sift it with a friend

888
00:42:20.400 --> 00:42:23.119
or a coach or a thought partner or a therapist

889
00:42:23.199 --> 00:42:25.440
or someone who can help you make sure you're sifting out,

890
00:42:25.719 --> 00:42:27.840
sifting out the right stuff and keeping in the right.

891
00:42:27.679 --> 00:42:28.559
Stuff as well.

892
00:42:28.960 --> 00:42:31.639
And then once you have those few nuggets, then I

893
00:42:31.719 --> 00:42:33.840
talk about turn it, which just means turn it over

894
00:42:33.920 --> 00:42:35.280
in your mind a few times.

895
00:42:35.599 --> 00:42:38.480
The first turn I talk about is what I call

896
00:42:39.000 --> 00:42:40.639
a story the story.

897
00:42:40.320 --> 00:42:42.360
Turn, which is just to simply say, what did I

898
00:42:42.400 --> 00:42:44.800
hear that might influence the story that I have about

899
00:42:44.800 --> 00:42:45.199
this person.

900
00:42:45.239 --> 00:42:47.079
Maybe maybe I learned what they were up against.

901
00:42:47.159 --> 00:42:49.000
Maybe I learned about an impact that I'm having on them,

902
00:42:49.000 --> 00:42:51.920
Maybe I learned maybe it confirms my story, whatever it

903
00:42:51.960 --> 00:42:53.559
may be, But how does it change my thinking about

904
00:42:53.559 --> 00:42:57.239
what's going on? The second turn is to think about

905
00:42:57.280 --> 00:42:59.000
it at the level of what steps you can take,

906
00:42:59.360 --> 00:43:02.559
So based on how my story is getting revised. Do

907
00:43:02.639 --> 00:43:04.400
I want to apologize? Do I want to double down?

908
00:43:04.440 --> 00:43:05.760
Do I want to go faster? Do I want to

909
00:43:05.760 --> 00:43:07.280
make a left turn? Whatever it is, but what steps

910
00:43:07.320 --> 00:43:08.679
should I actually be taking. That's how you get it

911
00:43:08.679 --> 00:43:12.760
really actionable. And then the third is talking about it

912
00:43:12.840 --> 00:43:16.679
at the level of my stuff, my deeper assumptions, my biases,

913
00:43:16.840 --> 00:43:19.280
my ways of being. Is there something I learned from

914
00:43:19.280 --> 00:43:21.079
this person that might just shut it with any of

915
00:43:21.079 --> 00:43:24.559
that stuff, any of those habits, And if so, what

916
00:43:24.599 --> 00:43:27.840
did I learn about myself? And so it's the story turn,

917
00:43:28.000 --> 00:43:31.360
it's the steps turn, it's the stuff turned. And that's

918
00:43:31.480 --> 00:43:33.679
really how we squeeze the good insight out of what

919
00:43:33.719 --> 00:43:36.119
we learned from other people. And then, as I mentioned

920
00:43:36.159 --> 00:43:39.079
briefly before, it's not enough to stop there.

921
00:43:39.119 --> 00:43:40.000
Then we reconnect.

922
00:43:40.320 --> 00:43:42.159
Then we go back to the other person, we say

923
00:43:42.159 --> 00:43:43.760
and we say, hey, thank you for sharing.

924
00:43:44.079 --> 00:43:44.920
Here's what I learned.

925
00:43:45.199 --> 00:43:46.599
By the way, Is this what you were hoping I

926
00:43:46.639 --> 00:43:48.920
would have learned? Is there anything I didn't learn that

927
00:43:49.239 --> 00:43:51.800
you were thinking maybe I should take away? And to

928
00:43:51.840 --> 00:43:53.440
your point, if you took a risk, thank you for

929
00:43:53.440 --> 00:43:55.760
taking that risk as well. And I think that really

930
00:43:55.800 --> 00:43:58.119
sends the message to the other person that their time

931
00:43:58.199 --> 00:44:01.000
was well spent. It helped them see that they matter,

932
00:44:01.599 --> 00:44:04.360
how powerful they are in terms of influencing us, especially

933
00:44:04.360 --> 00:44:05.519
if we say, and by the way, here's what I.

934
00:44:05.519 --> 00:44:06.239
Want to do about it.

935
00:44:07.119 --> 00:44:10.280
And I think it radically increases the chances that next time,

936
00:44:10.360 --> 00:44:12.480
when there's something for them to share with us, that

937
00:44:12.480 --> 00:44:14.159
they're going to feel motivated to do that too.

938
00:44:15.239 --> 00:44:18.599
Absolutely, And let's just think about just the quality now

939
00:44:18.639 --> 00:44:21.400
of that relationship and connection, right, and we know how

940
00:44:21.480 --> 00:44:26.599
much gets done through relationships. Exactly beautiful. So there was

941
00:44:26.599 --> 00:44:27.880
a couple of more areas that I wanted to hit,

942
00:44:27.920 --> 00:44:30.000
but given where we are on time here, I guess

943
00:44:30.079 --> 00:44:33.440
what I want to maybe treat last is this idea

944
00:44:33.519 --> 00:44:35.199
that you have in your book of you know, making

945
00:44:35.400 --> 00:44:38.039
this our superpower. How do we how do we what

946
00:44:38.079 --> 00:44:40.480
does it take to become a world class asker?

947
00:44:41.000 --> 00:44:44.320
Yeah, and I will say that this is a skill set,

948
00:44:44.440 --> 00:44:48.039
it's a muscle then we can build. We were all

949
00:44:48.119 --> 00:44:52.599
born curious, so deep down in us, it's in there

950
00:44:52.719 --> 00:44:56.239
that curiosity, just in the in the say in that

951
00:44:56.360 --> 00:44:58.360
opening quote you read from ABM and since you talked

952
00:44:58.360 --> 00:45:02.559
about renewing our name, our name, curiosity as well, But

953
00:45:02.559 --> 00:45:05.840
there's also specific techniques and strategies and skills that I

954
00:45:05.840 --> 00:45:07.960
don't think we were born with that we can actually learn,

955
00:45:08.440 --> 00:45:12.039
things like the ways to make it safe, things like

956
00:45:12.119 --> 00:45:16.199
the taxonomy of questions. And just like any other skill,

957
00:45:16.719 --> 00:45:20.119
it's really about chunking it up, so, you know, taking

958
00:45:20.159 --> 00:45:23.519
one piece of it, realizing when we might not be

959
00:45:23.559 --> 00:45:27.480
doing it, that we could be doing it. Then starting

960
00:45:27.480 --> 00:45:32.400
to pry it out in small, safer environments, then getting

961
00:45:32.400 --> 00:45:34.559
some feedback, watching what happens when we try it out,

962
00:45:34.639 --> 00:45:36.800
what did we see? Sometimes it's even telling the other person,

963
00:45:36.840 --> 00:45:38.519
haven't trying a new question, how did that land for you?

964
00:45:39.840 --> 00:45:40.840
And then practicing it.

965
00:45:40.880 --> 00:45:44.400
Oh, and that practice feedback, practice feedback is what starts

966
00:45:44.440 --> 00:45:46.400
to make it fluid, make it feel natural for us.

967
00:45:46.920 --> 00:45:48.960
And then pick the next skill and try it again,

968
00:45:49.039 --> 00:45:51.639
and pick the next skill and try again. And then

969
00:45:51.679 --> 00:45:54.239
once you start to get those down, you can begin

970
00:45:54.440 --> 00:45:56.960
to then try it in a slightly more risky circumstance

971
00:45:58.000 --> 00:45:59.920
and from there it's beginning. You know, it goes for

972
00:46:00.159 --> 00:46:02.760
being kind of a new skill to a muscle, and

973
00:46:02.840 --> 00:46:05.239
ultimately I think to a superpower that really does start

974
00:46:05.239 --> 00:46:05.719
to come more.

975
00:46:05.679 --> 00:46:10.360
Naturally beautifully situated because that gives me enough time now

976
00:46:10.400 --> 00:46:11.960
to hit the last area that I wanted to hit

977
00:46:11.960 --> 00:46:13.440
for you. So thank you for that. Jeff, You're a

978
00:46:13.480 --> 00:46:16.440
great partner. You know, given that I do work with

979
00:46:16.440 --> 00:46:18.920
the organization to help them build their culture that's activated

980
00:46:18.920 --> 00:46:21.239
in meaning and purpose, I would be remiss if we

981
00:46:21.239 --> 00:46:24.000
didn't talk about how we can fold this into our team,

982
00:46:25.199 --> 00:46:28.599
making this our organizational superpower. As you say, so this

983
00:46:28.760 --> 00:46:31.519
idea of how can we unlock the collective genius of

984
00:46:31.559 --> 00:46:33.400
our teams using this methodology.

985
00:46:33.880 --> 00:46:36.480
Yes, and so it's a recognition that every team, both

986
00:46:36.519 --> 00:46:41.519
inside the team and around the team as insight, collective intelligence,

987
00:46:41.519 --> 00:46:44.760
collective genius around it. And there are a number of

988
00:46:44.760 --> 00:46:46.719
ways that teams and organizations build us in.

989
00:46:47.199 --> 00:46:47.840
You know, more and.

990
00:46:47.800 --> 00:46:52.280
More teams and organizations are getting very intentional about tapping

991
00:46:52.320 --> 00:46:56.039
into end users. Those end users might be customers, those

992
00:46:56.079 --> 00:46:58.960
could be software users, those could actually even be employees

993
00:46:59.119 --> 00:47:03.280
themselves as well, but really being intentional about asking the

994
00:47:03.360 --> 00:47:06.719
right questions, making it safe for sure, closing the loop,

995
00:47:06.760 --> 00:47:08.079
saying here's what we had, you know, here's what we

996
00:47:08.159 --> 00:47:10.280
did with what you had, with what you shared with us.

997
00:47:11.840 --> 00:47:16.239
There's also a number of hiring practices one can build

998
00:47:16.400 --> 00:47:20.880
actually send the message that we value curiosity. When I

999
00:47:20.960 --> 00:47:22.800
know when I was hiring, when I was interviewing for

1000
00:47:22.920 --> 00:47:25.239
my first job, one of the things that happened was

1001
00:47:25.239 --> 00:47:28.159
that PETE was that after a big performance task, someone

1002
00:47:28.159 --> 00:47:29.440
sat me down and gave me a whole bunch of

1003
00:47:29.480 --> 00:47:32.719
critical feedback. And I thought they were just being nice

1004
00:47:32.719 --> 00:47:34.800
and telling me why I didn't get the job, But

1005
00:47:34.880 --> 00:47:37.159
what they were really doing was testing for my reaction.

1006
00:47:37.320 --> 00:47:39.400
Was I going to be curious about that feedback? Were

1007
00:47:39.400 --> 00:47:40.840
I going to be defensive about that feedback? And you

1008
00:47:40.840 --> 00:47:44.480
could see some natural incarnations that people have as well. Yeah,

1009
00:47:44.599 --> 00:47:47.119
of course there's also the possibility to actually do this

1010
00:47:47.199 --> 00:47:51.000
training and help people actually build these skills. Read the book,

1011
00:47:51.079 --> 00:47:53.599
do workshops practice, All that kind of stuff really embeds it.

1012
00:47:53.880 --> 00:47:57.280
But the thing I think I would maybe land on

1013
00:47:57.320 --> 00:48:01.440
the hardest is the modeling of leaders. For leaders to

1014
00:48:01.519 --> 00:48:06.239
see themselves as learners in chief, whether you're a team leader,

1015
00:48:06.440 --> 00:48:10.119
whether you're a business leader, CEO, in order to actually

1016
00:48:10.159 --> 00:48:12.480
model for your people what it looks like to say, wow,

1017
00:48:12.519 --> 00:48:14.719
I don't know the answer to that, or I need

1018
00:48:14.760 --> 00:48:16.280
some help, or what can I learn from you? Or

1019
00:48:16.320 --> 00:48:18.480
here's a question, or I'm really curious about this, or

1020
00:48:18.519 --> 00:48:20.840
I got that wrong. And here's why any of those

1021
00:48:20.920 --> 00:48:23.519
kinds of things can go so far in terms of

1022
00:48:23.559 --> 00:48:26.679
sending the message in your culture. This is an important

1023
00:48:26.679 --> 00:48:27.039
thing to do.

1024
00:48:28.480 --> 00:48:31.519
Jeff. That's just gold beautiful. I'm so grateful to know you.

1025
00:48:31.599 --> 00:48:33.480
And by the way, I last week I had on

1026
00:48:33.519 --> 00:48:36.639
my show I'm doctor Marie Helen Pelletier and I told

1027
00:48:36.639 --> 00:48:38.000
her you were coming on. She goes, Oh, I know

1028
00:48:38.159 --> 00:48:42.400
Jeff and his work, so you are officially famous. So

1029
00:48:42.800 --> 00:48:45.039
just say, in about thirty seconds, what would you like

1030
00:48:45.079 --> 00:48:47.599
to leave our listeners and viewers across the world with.

1031
00:48:48.039 --> 00:48:52.239
I think we just say, there is something important to

1032
00:48:52.360 --> 00:48:56.039
learn from every single person in your life, even people

1033
00:48:56.079 --> 00:48:58.800
that you think you've known for years, even people that

1034
00:48:58.840 --> 00:49:01.679
you live with that you're very close with. There's something

1035
00:49:01.679 --> 00:49:05.360
you don't know that if you can tap into, will

1036
00:49:05.400 --> 00:49:07.679
make you better off, and we'll make your relationship better off.

1037
00:49:07.800 --> 00:49:11.000
We'll and and we'll really benefit them as well. And

1038
00:49:11.039 --> 00:49:12.000
it's totally doable.

1039
00:49:12.119 --> 00:49:14.079
It's something that we can all learn to get better at.

1040
00:49:15.360 --> 00:49:17.440
Jeff, thank you. What a beautiful way to close. As

1041
00:49:17.480 --> 00:49:20.079
I said, very grateful to know you. And definitely want

1042
00:49:20.119 --> 00:49:21.880
to be able to spread this beautiful word about what

1043
00:49:21.920 --> 00:49:23.920
you're doing in your work. So thank you for being

1044
00:49:23.920 --> 00:49:24.840
on working on purpose.

1045
00:49:25.199 --> 00:49:27.840
Thank you so much for having me really appreciate the conversation.

1046
00:49:28.519 --> 00:49:31.199
Very very welcome. Great stuff. Listeners and viewers, you are

1047
00:49:31.199 --> 00:49:33.000
going to want to learn more about this remarkable man,

1048
00:49:33.079 --> 00:49:35.320
Jeff Wetsler, the work he does at trends In and

1049
00:49:35.519 --> 00:49:38.239
his book Ask So the best way to start that

1050
00:49:38.280 --> 00:49:42.079
process is just go to his website, ask approach dot com,

1051
00:49:42.559 --> 00:49:45.519
Ask approach dot com. Last week, if you missed the

1052
00:49:45.519 --> 00:49:47.239
live show, you can always get to be a recorded

1053
00:49:47.280 --> 00:49:49.760
podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. We were on

1054
00:49:49.800 --> 00:49:52.840
here with doctor Marie Helen ven Tier talking about her

1055
00:49:52.840 --> 00:49:56.199
book The Resilience Plan, a strategic approach to optimizing your

1056
00:49:56.239 --> 00:49:59.440
work performance and mental health. She taught us just how

1057
00:49:59.480 --> 00:50:02.719
important it to proactively manage our resilience and lead out

1058
00:50:02.719 --> 00:50:05.039
a plan to do so. Next week, we'll be on

1059
00:50:05.079 --> 00:50:07.880
the air with Karen Golden Biddle talking about her book

1060
00:50:07.960 --> 00:50:11.079
The Untapped Power of Discovery, How to create the change

1061
00:50:11.079 --> 00:50:13.559
that inspires a better Future. We will talk about how

1062
00:50:13.679 --> 00:50:17.719
nurturing a learning organization and embracing the discovery process, Leaders

1063
00:50:17.719 --> 00:50:20.400
and their teams can take the path that goes beyond

1064
00:50:20.400 --> 00:50:24.039
familiar change management practices and far beyond the limited scope

1065
00:50:24.079 --> 00:50:27.119
and assumptions of change management that is still taught in

1066
00:50:27.199 --> 00:50:30.440
North American business schools today. See you there, Remember that

1067
00:50:30.480 --> 00:50:32.280
work is one of the best adventures and means of

1068
00:50:32.320 --> 00:50:35.360
realizing our potential and making the impact we crave. So

1069
00:50:35.559 --> 00:50:36.679
let's work on Purpose.

1070
00:50:39.639 --> 00:50:42.280
We hope you've enjoyed this week's program. Be sure to

1071
00:50:42.320 --> 00:50:45.960
tune into Working on Purpose featuring your host, doctor Elise Cortes,

1072
00:50:46.079 --> 00:50:49.400
each week on W four CY. Together we'll create a

1073
00:50:49.440 --> 00:50:54.039
world where business operates conscientiously. Leadership inspires and passion performance

1074
00:50:54.159 --> 00:50:56.920
and employees are fulfilled in work that provides the meaning

1075
00:50:56.960 --> 00:51:00.760
and purpose they crave. See you there, Let's work on Purpose.