Trust: Why It’s Essential in Organizations and What to Do When It’s Broken

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hosts. Thank you for choosing W FORCY

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Radio. What's working on Purpose?
Anyway? Each week we ponder the answer

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to this question. People ache for
meaning and purpose at work, to contribute

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their talents passionately and know their lives
really matter. They crave being part of

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an organization that inspires them and helps
them grow into realizing their highest potential.

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Business can be such a force for
good in the world, elevating humanity.

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In our program, we provide guidance
and inspiration to help usher in this world

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we all want working on Purpose.
Now here's your host, Doctor Release Cortez.

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Welcome back to the Working and Purpose
Programs shooting in again the sweet grade

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to have you. This program has
been on Ayrson's February of twenty fifteen,

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and I love every single week of
it. I'm your host, doctor Elis

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Cortez. If you don't know me, we've not met yet. I am

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and management consultant and organizational logo therapist, speaker and author. My team and

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I at Least Cortez and Associates help
companies to enliven and fortify their operations by

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articulating their purpose and building inspirational leaders
and cultures activated by meaning and purpose to

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turn those companies from a flatline EKG
to a vibrant destination workplace. There,

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people are intrinsically motivated to perform with
their best growner the fullest potential, and

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are committed to stay and dynamic and
deliver on the company's mission. You can

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learn more about us and how we
can work together at at least cortez dot

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com getting in today's program we have
with us. Doctor Peter kim He is

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a professor of management and organization at
the Marshall School of Business at the University

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of Southern California. He's devoted decades
to his research on trust and is the

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author of How Trust Works, The
Science of How religionships are built, broken

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and repaired to be talking about today, he joins in the Los Angeles area,

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Doctor Kim, Welcome to working on
Purpose. Thank you, doctor Cortez.

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It's a pleasure being here. It's
really magnificent. As we were saying

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before we got on air, you
know this beautiful thing that you produced,

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it's just stunningly gorgeous. And as
I said to you, what I'm going

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to do, this is going to
be one of those dead jokes. This

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is harder than bringing a baby into
the world. So congratulations, thank you,

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You're welcome. I'm gonna make you
blush, but really is. And

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I also before we get started,
Peter, I really want to just acknowledge

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you for how beautiful your book is. It's incredibly well researched. I can

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feel your heart in there. I
can feel your integrity, I can feel

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your elevated consciousness, and I can
feel your intentions to make the world a

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better place. And I just really
want you to know that all came through

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in your book. Well, I'm
glad to hear that. It's hard to

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know when you're writing, you know, late at night, all alone in

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office, just trying to get these
ideas across and I'm so glad to hear

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that it came through m indeed it
did. So. One of the things

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that I found really compelling about your
book and some of the legare that came

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with it, is just really,
you know, what brought you to trust

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or to study trust all these years, And one of the things you said

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briefly, I'd look for you to
expand on, as you say, regardless

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of their form, I have always
been grouped by stories of guilt and redemption.

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That is quite a thing to be
obsessed with. Peter, Well,

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it's true, and I think one
odd quirk in my background will help explain

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it. So I was raised in
a devout Roman Catholic family. My father

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almost became a priest, actually and
let's decided against it. But despite that,

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that was a very strong influence in
my younger days, and so,

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you know, being exposed to to
to the church. And you know,

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I'm no longer practicing, but at
the time it was a very salient to

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me. How much of Catholicism is
about guilt and redemption, and probably most

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religions have a strong focus on those
issues, and maybe it's because it is

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such a universal challenge for all of
us. And I love the stories that

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you also shared about, you know, your parents working and sometimes not getting

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paid for the work that they did, and some of the impressions that left

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on you. It was just as
I said, you know, you just

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really led us into your world in
a way that I guess, really want

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to think about it, your book
wouldn't be nearly as effective you hadn't done

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that well. Thank you. I
think one of the things that I decided

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to do when writing the book is
well I it occurred to me that one

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thing I needed to do at the
start is to trust my audience, my

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reader, and to let them in. And it was important in the sense

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that it's very easy to focus on
this phenomenon on a purely scientific level,

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to study this at arm's length,
and you need to do that to maintain

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objectivity. But I wanted the reader
to know at the beginning that despite my

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need to do that as a scientist, as a human being, this is

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far from arms length. It is
a very personal topic to me, as

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it is for so many people.
M I think at this juncture makes a

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lot of sense for us to you
to find what you actually mean by trust

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and if you don't mind, What
I'd like to do is read just a

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short passage of that and then have
you comment on it, because I think

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what I'm clear about to Peter is
you have chosen every word with strong precision

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and conviction, and it's really beautiful. So you you talk about how social

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scientists have defined trust as quote,
a psychological state comprising the intention to accept

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vulnerability based on positive expectations of the
intentions or behavior of another. That's very

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powerful. Can you talk a little
bit more about the definition what's in there?

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Absolutely? So, it is a
rather lengthy definition on one level,

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but it's lengthy for a reason,
and it's because even though trust may seem

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like a simple idea, it can
be easily confused with others ideas. And

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it's only by looking at these components
and taking them seriously that we can really

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distinguish trust from other things. And
so one a psychological state. So this

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gets to the fact that many times
we gauge trust simply through behavior, and

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so the traditional research on trust up
to that point had primarily focused on whether

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or not you simply cooperate or not. And the problem with that approach to

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understanding trust is that there are many
times when you act as if you trust

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when you don't really trust at all, and so sometimes the situation will compel

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you to act as if you trust
the other person or the incentives are oriented

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in a certain way, but that
doesn't necessarily mean that you think well enough

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about the other person to make yourself
vulnerable. And so this vulnerability component is

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another essential element, and that gets
to the fact that sometimes we might cooperate

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when there isn't any real downside.
We need to believe that there's some risk

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involved in a situation in order for
us to manifest this trust. And this

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gets to the fact that sometimes people
try to enable cooperative behavior by mitigating risk

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as an alternative, and that can
have its uses. It can be very

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important to do that in many cases. But if if that's the approach,

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what you're doing is enabling cooperative behavior
without the need to trust by just making

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the vulnerability unnecessary because the risk has
been removed. And so those elements are

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essential for distinguishing trust from things like
cooperation or cooperative behavior more broadly, and

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situations where you enable that through this
mitigation of risk by just protecting yourself or

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by just forcing others to behave in
a certain way so that you can cooperate

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with them. Those are very different
kinds of approaches to getting to an endpoint,

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but not approaches that are as synonymous
with trust. M okay. So,

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now, because we've been speaking a
bit conceptually here, it occurs to

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me that I wanted to throw it
to just a phenomenon or experience that I

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had just today, and maybe you
could speak to that and what you just

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were trying to separate in terms of
those concepts. So what happened was,

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and I'm sure I wouldn't have even
had this on my mind had I not

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read your book, But I drove
to meet a client today for lunch.

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And as I was driving there along
six thirty five mindor, traffic was moving

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fairly, fairly quickly, so that
was the first impediment here. But I

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observed a man who was out.
He was walking or a standing, i

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should say, And I thought,
why is this man standing on the media

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and you know this, you know, five lane freeway. You know it's

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maybe there's some some mental issues here
or something. Then I saw that he

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was sort of, you know,
waiving this red gas can, and I

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thought, okay, so he's run
out of gas. Understand that, however,

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I can't see a car. Where's
the car that goes with the can

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of gas? So on the basis
of how fast traffic was moving, which

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I could have found a way to
pull over even though, but and that

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I couldn't see a car, which
really made me question, missus man you

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know, and I'm a woman going
to stop and pick up a man.

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I didn't do it. So having
said what you said before about those different

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concepts, maybe you could kind of
help us understand what was happening there.

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Wow, that's a very interesting scenario. Well, and I think one of

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the things it raises is this distinction
between this behavior. How behavior can be

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affected by both trust and risk.
So you may have stopped to help this

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person if the risk wasn't so high, for example, if if there were

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many many people on the side of
the road, for example, who weren't

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in cars, but who could give
you the sense that if thing want to

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write, there would be people to
stop that that individual from attacking you or

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robbing you or some one. So
whether you stopped can be determined by that

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assessment of risk, irrespective of how
much trust you have in that person.

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So there's that individual involved there,
uh, And so that's one of the

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factors that that you know, can
affect that behavior. And again it's why

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we need to look at those positive
expectations uh as a as a as a

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cognition that isn't necessarily something that we
or is something that we consider independently of

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these other influences, because a lots
of if things can influence behavior, and

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so that kind of assessment is very
important. And so you know, whether

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you stop to help that person may
have also been influenced by a host of

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other considerations. For example, what
did the person look like, did the

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person seem disheveled or did the person
seem clean cut? Did did you encounter

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a similar incident like this yourself running
out of gas? You know? And

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did you have to walk a few
miles and an attempt to find a gas

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station? And that might explain why
the guests, you know, this person

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didn't have a car nearby. There
are a variety of things that we attend

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to when we make these decisions about
whether to trust another and we can't discount

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the fact that we are influenced by
news reports. So the things that we

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might have encountered, maybe a story
about someone a good samaritan that was attacked

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by the person they were trying to
help. Just one new story like that

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can be enough to affect our willingness
to stop. So a trust can be

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influenced by all these considerations, and
it gets to how this initial trust and

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others people we don't know, can
be affected by societal considerations. What are

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the laws, rules, norms.
It can be affected by your personal disposition,

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So someone in your exact same in
your car with you might have had

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a different inclination in that exact same
situation based on their disposition. And then

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third, what are the cues that
we are getting based on the situation.

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So all those combine to affect our
willingness to take that risk. Beautifully explicated

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doctor Kim. So listeners of you
are supposed to you who have not yet

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read the book as I have.
His book is full, just beautifully full

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of all kinds of events that you're
going to recognize, where he goes on

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to explain and help us understand why
we trusted one person and didn't another.

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It's just really well done. So
that was another great example of you doing

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it on the fly, that you
didn't get any any notice that that was

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coming your way, So thank you
for that. Okay, So that makes

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me then have to ask you then
based on that was just my interaction,

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one little small thing today. Now
I want if you could to talk about

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how understanding how trust works helps us
as individuals first and then society. The

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main thing to consider when it comes
to trust is that all social interactions,

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well maybe not all, but the
vast majority are mixed motive in nature.

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So we all benefit when we cooperate
with one another, but we also have

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individual incentives to take advantage, and
that accounts for how we engage with one

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another in work settings, in disputes
and negotiations, are views about taxation and

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you know, and public goods and
public bads and so on. So what

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we know about trust is that,
given given that fact of life, that

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these situations are mixed motive in nature, the evidence indicates that those who are

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more willing to trust, when there's
higher trust, those kinds of interactions are

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more successful. We wind up better
off when there's greater trust, not only

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individually but also as a society.
The more cooperation trust enables cooperation, and

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the more cooperation, the better off
we are and our willingness to trust not

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only others but also our elves.
It enables constructive action. So if we

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believe someone is worth that trust,
we're more likely invest to invest in that

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relationship. And when we invest in
that relationship, turns out that rather than

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treat this as an opportunity for exploitation, most people, when they're trusted,

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they want to prove us right,
so they reciprocate that behavior. So we

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can create a self fulfilling prophecy in
this respect. So when we trust others,

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they are inclined to treat that as
a precious resource to maintain for the

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future, and they're more likely to
trust us in turn, and again that

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leads to better cooperation and more constructive
behavior overall. And we can see this

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in society at the most macro level, where studies have looked at the relationship

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between societal level of trust and economic
prosperity, and in fact there is a

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strong, direct core relations between the
two that is incredibly powerful. So listen

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to me, Wors. We're going
to dig more into how he did his

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research and ask you the determinants of
trust. After our first regul let's grab

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that first. I'm your host,
doctor Elise Cortez. We're on the year

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of doctor Peter Kim, who is
a professor of Management and Organization at the

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Marshall School of Business at the University
of Southern California. He's also the author

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of How Trust Works, The Science
of how relationships are built, broken,

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and repaired. See what this will
be right back. Doctor Elise Cortez is

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a management consultant specializing in meaning and
purpose. An inspirational speaker and author,

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she helps companies visioneer for a greater
purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired leadership

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and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance and commits within the workforce.

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To learn more or to invite a
lease to speak to your organization, please

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visit her at Elise Cortez dot com. Let's talk about how to get your

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employees working on purpose. This is
working on Purpose with doctor Elise Cortez.

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To reach our program today or to
open a conversation with a lease, send

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an email to elease Ali se at
Elise Cortez dot com. Now back to

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working on purpose. Thanks for thinking
well us and welcome back to working on

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Purpose. I'm your host, doctor
Elise Cortez. As I too, am

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dedicated to my craft, and I'm
out to help create a world where people

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realize the potential at work and are
led by inspirational leaders who help them find

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and contribute their greatness, and we
do business that betters the world. I

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keep writing my own books, and
so my latest it came out in March

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at twenty twenty three. It's called
The Great Revitalization. How activating meaning and

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purpose can radically enliven your business.
I wrote it to help readers understand what

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today's workforce wants, and then I
offer twenty two best projecices to equip them

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to provide it to the leadership and
their culture. You can learn about all

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of my books at least Cortez dot
com and find them on Amazon if you

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are just joining us. My guest
today is doctor Peter Kim. He's the

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author of How Trust Works, the
science of how relationships are built, broken

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and repaired. So now, at
this juncture that we have, I think

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at very adequately what the appetite of
our listeners and viewers is just to what

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you've been doing and why it's important
now. I want to hear about their

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research. I too have done research
and it's no small, easy affair,

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and you've been doing it for decades, So can you say a little bit

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about how you've done your research?
Absolutely so, over the past twenty years

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or so, I think it's closer
to twenty five at this point. I've

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been exploring this question by studying thousands
of people at this stage through surveys,

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adaptations of real life situations, and
other types of experiments. Usually, what

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I've done with this work on trust
in particular, is to take inspiration from

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events that have occurred in real life, something that might be in the news,

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and use that as a basis for
exploring questions that are not only of

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practical importance, but also of theoretical
importance, questions that we don't really have

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much insight into. And so this
might take, for example, the form

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of some incident that's occurred in the
news, and then creating versions of that

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scenario where we might ask, well, what would have happened if this person

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said something else instead or done something
else instead? Well, I have the

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resources to create alternative versions of these
scenarios. Sometimes this involves just pen and

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paper descriptions what happened and what was
said. Other times it involves usually using

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the actual video clips and combining them
with photos or images. And there have

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been occasions where I've gone into TV
studios to create news stories that that that

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report on the events in slightly different
ways, so that I can, through

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a scientific, rigorous process, compare
people's reactions depending on the different tweaks that

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I might have made to these situations. Well, I love research, so

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I would love to be working with
you on those things. That sounds incredibly

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fascinating, and having those kind of
resources is really amazing. Okay, So

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next, if you would you talk
in your book about really severing two powerful

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and determinants of trust, can you
let us end that secret? Absolutely?

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So. There are a variety of
considerations that can affect our trust, and

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others and researchers have identified as many
as ten different characteristics. But what we've

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find across different studies is that even
though there's variation, depending of variation in

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terms of what's important depending on the
type of relationship, that two characteristics tend

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to be the most important across situations
and across relationships. And those considerations are

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competence and integrity. So that affects
our evaluations of leaders, subordinates co workers,

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and so on, and those considerations
are specially important because it turns out

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their odd elements of our mental basement
that leads us to weigh information about competence

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and integrity quite differently. So it
turns out that there's an asymmetry, there's

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a positive bias. When it comes
to matters of competence, we weigh positive

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information about competence much more heavily than
negative information about competence. But for matters

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of integrity, that's reversed. We
weigh negative information about integrity much more heavily

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than positive information about integrity. And
these asymmetries are important because a lot of

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responses that are used after trust violation
tend to be double edged in nature,

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like an apology that is beneficial in
the sense that it conveys remorse, but

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it can also convey the fact that
you are in fact guilty, So it

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has both negative information about guilt and
positive information about the likelihood of redemption.

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And if we wag those signals differently
depending on how the situation is viewed as

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a matter of competence or integrity,
that means that the exact same response like

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an apology, can be very beneficial
in some situations, but really harmful in

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others. I found that to be
an incredibly I don't know, elucidating,

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alluring what you how you explained that
that made it made so much sense to

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me. Doctor Kemnet was like,
Wow, that just really opened my understanding.

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And then further if we can,
I want to take this notion of

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you said earlier, and I want
to build on this, especially for insider

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organizations and how leaders consider this.
As you said that for most of us,

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when someone trusts us, we want
to prove them right. So likewise,

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you say, consider the seemingly questionable
practice of gauging the trustworthiness of other

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space from their faces. Evidence suggests
that even this seemingly arbitrary reason to trust

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other people can sometimes have a predictive
value. What I want to get to

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on this for the application of the
world of work. One of the things

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that I have come to understand in
my work as a management consultant is in

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this world where people are increasingly wanting
to stay with a notion of some kind

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of virtual hybrid workforce workplace scenario,
what we see increasingly as many organizations pushing

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back on that, and when you
really press them on why that's so,

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they will oftentimes reveal that they don't
trust the workers to do actual work when

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they can't see them. And so
I find this really this idea of giving

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people trust because they want to make
sure and treat it as a precious resource,

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as you said before, and keep
it to be quite interesting. And

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it'd be interesting if you could say
a bit about maybe how that might play

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out in today's workplace. I know
that's a lot to take on, but

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just the notion of trust when it
comes to not being able to see your

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workers and believe that they're actually working
for you, I think it's an interesting

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cross roots we're facing nowadays, precisely
because we've we've had to change our work

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habits so dramatically through COVID. And
I think you're right that part of the

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reason why organizations are so eager to
get workers back is that they don't necessarily

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trust them to be as productive,
to be as conscientious at home then at

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work, and so they want to
monitor them. And this gets to and

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orientation organizations have about trying to reduce
risk through through through this monitoring system.

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So they want to encourage cooperative behavior
by reducing risk by having bosses watch these

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people and and and make sure they're
they're they're doing all this work. HR

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practices are often designed around the mitigation
of risk and what can they do to

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sort of keep people in line,
and so that is one way of going

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about it. The issue there is
that there's a clear downside, and that

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downside from the employee perspective certainly is
that they can't work at home. But

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even from an organizational perspective, there
are real downsides in the sense that to

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have this monitoring system really keep track
of all these employees and really watch them

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and keep them in line, you
need an enormous bureaucracy. HR departments need

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all these rules and regulations about what
people can or cannot do, and that

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may prevent some people who might abuse
the situation from going ahead and doing that.

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But what you clearly give up is
the resources that you that are devoted

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to that monitoring system to maintaining this
enormous bureaucracy that could have been devoted to

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other ends that might have been good
for the organization. So one example that

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I teach in my MBA classrooms is
the case of Netflix, and they talk

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about this problem, and they talk
about how as small organizations grow, they

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just develop all this bureaucracy, these
rules and regulations to keep control over what's

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going on, and that stifles innovation, that keeps people from doing things because

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they're not quite sure if this is
allowed and so on, and there's a

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real downside to that. Netflix recognizes
that, and what do they do instead?

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They just have one rule and led
us to work in Netflix's best interest,

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and that's it. They don't even
have a vacation policy. So if

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you believe that you need a vacation
and you're titled to a vacation, you

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can take a vacation. And you
know, there's certainly stories about Netflix that

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talk about the downsides of this.
There's a lot of social pressure to not

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abuse these rules. But the main
point of this is that you don't get

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off scott free by just insisting on
this monitoring approach. And in fact,

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I just read that Apple has an
interesting policy for their higher performers. The

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more the higher you are as a
performer, the better you do, the

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more freedom you have. And interesting
it's an attempt to trust people that are

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worthy of trust. This is really
really incredibly useful, doctor Kim. This

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is something that I'm just really am
passionate about trying to help create these work

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these workplaces where people can thrive.
And that's really a sticky point today,

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So thank you for really illuminating that. What I want to do next.

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This really is also quite interesting here
is you've got a section in your book

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where you talk about how what we
can do to make ourselves less vulnerable to

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those violators that might want to do
something that you know would actually make us

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not want to trust them. There
you talk about how some people that actually

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are out to harm us are targeting
certain people, and I think it's interesting

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that's you've got a whole section that
talks about that. So if you could

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just say a little bit about what
can we do to make ourselves not targets

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of somebody who might want to violate
our trust, or why we actually or

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our risk goes with it. Well, you know, clearly every time we

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we trust someone, we do make
ourselves vulnerable, and there is a real

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risk that's that's undertaken in those situations. And so so one one of the

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things that people do they you know
that we talked about a bit before,

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is this idea of protecting themselves,
creating some sort of system that will prevent

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them from a taking advantage. When
you do that, it creates another problem

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that we didn't discuss before, and
it's that this might lead them to behave

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in a trustworthy manner, but you
will always have the question of did they

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do that because of the monitoring system
or because they're actually trustworthy. You don't

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know, because you've created this system
to keep them from exploiting you, And

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that problem that creates a problem in
other situations, gray area situations where that

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monitoring system isn't going to protect you
as well. That if we were to

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think about different cultures, Japan has
a system that a social system that's designed

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to keep people in line through social
norms and that keeps people behaving in a

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trustworthy way. The problem is that
it also keeps people from moving in and

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out of networks, entering new partnerships
with new companies that are outside their networks,

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and so on, and so there
has been a real downside there when

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it comes to that focus. So
for us, you know, I think

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a lesson is that we do need
to give people the benefit of the doubt.

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It doesn't necessarily mean that we make
ours entirely vulnerable, but it can

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mean that we initiate little acts of
trust and see what happens. And so

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I know George Bush is from Texas, and I recall a story about him

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that is Jermaine, and it's how
he when he would meet someone, he

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would share a little secret with them, and so he would trust them with

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something that was not a national security
risk, but he would share a little

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tidbit with them, and that was
a way of exhibiting trust and allowing the

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other side to either nurture that trust
or you know, if they weren't inclined

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to do that, well, he
would find out without making himself entirely vulnerable.

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So so those kinds of steps can
can can help. You don't have

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to trust entirely right away, but
to have a bias towards trust and give

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people the opportunity to live up to
that expectation I think is going to be

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a better road, because the evidence
indicates that even people who have this irrational

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bias towards trust, they wind up
better off. Precisely for the reasons that

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we talked about, people want to
fulfill that expectation. And even you know

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this this trust based on arbitrary reasons
that how they their faces look it turns

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out the evidence indicates that people who
are trusted for that reason wind up being

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more trustworthy precisely for the reasons what
we talked about. I'm drinking all this

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sand, Doctor Kim, It's wonderful. I'm your host, Doctor Elie's quartet.

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Who don't you have? Doctor Peter
Kim. He's Professor of Management and

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Organization at the Marshall School of Business
at the University of Southern California and the

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author of How Trust Works, The
Science of how relationships are built, broken,

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and repaired. After work, we're
going to get into the key components

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of an effective apology and why sometimes
an apology is a bad idea. Stay

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with us, We'll be right back. Doctor Elise Cortez is a management consultant

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specializing in meaning and purpose. An
inspirational speaker and author, she helps companies

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00:35:39.079 --> 00:35:45.360
visioneer for a greater purpose among stakeholders
and develop purpose inspired leadership and meaning infused

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00:35:45.400 --> 00:35:50.280
cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance,
and commitment within the workforce. To learn

393
00:35:50.280 --> 00:35:52.960
more or to invite a lease to
speak to your organization, please visit her

394
00:35:53.039 --> 00:35:58.480
at Elise Cortez dot com. Let's
talk about how to get your employees working

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on Purpose. This is working on
Purpose with doctor Elise Cortez. To reach

396
00:36:07.320 --> 00:36:12.280
our program today or to open a
conversation with Elise, send an email to

397
00:36:12.320 --> 00:36:17.360
elease A l I se at Elise
Cortez dot com. Now back to working

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on Purpose. Thank you for staying
us, and welcome back to Working on

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Purpose. I'm your host, doctor
Elise Cortez. I mentioned in the last

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break that my latest book came out
in March. It's called The Great Revitalization.

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I also created an assessment for you
on my website. You can go

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to at lease Cortes dot com and
find this assessment. You'll be able to

403
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download. It's a three page thing, and you'll be able to ascertain the

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00:36:42.760 --> 00:36:45.960
extent to which your company actually is
meeting the needs of today's workforce through that

405
00:36:46.159 --> 00:36:50.599
that assessment. If you are just
joining us, my guest is doctor Peter

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00:36:50.719 --> 00:36:54.000
Kim. He's the author of How
Trust Works Scientified relationships are built, broken

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and repaired. Before we get into
the components of an effective apology, I

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would love if you could say a
little bit you talk for the book about

409
00:37:02.400 --> 00:37:07.880
Homeboy industries and how it conserved to
restore trust on a societal level. That

410
00:37:07.920 --> 00:37:09.960
seems appropriate to talk about at some
point in this conversation, So could you

411
00:37:10.039 --> 00:37:16.079
could you know? So Homeboy Industries
is located in Los Angeles, and they

412
00:37:16.400 --> 00:37:25.400
are an organization devoted to reintegrating former
offenders, people with criminal backgrounds back into

413
00:37:25.440 --> 00:37:35.960
society. And so they have these
programs for these individuals that would allow them

414
00:37:36.119 --> 00:37:43.840
to work in various kinds of businesses. Bakeries for examples, one of the

415
00:37:44.000 --> 00:37:53.039
classic businesses that they operate to give
people the opportunity to gain employment, and

416
00:37:53.119 --> 00:38:00.440
that's one of the major hurdles for
those who are released from prison. A

417
00:38:00.440 --> 00:38:07.920
lot of repeat offenses are the result
of people being released and having no employment

418
00:38:07.000 --> 00:38:15.440
prospects and being in a situation where
they just see future crimes as the only

419
00:38:15.519 --> 00:38:22.480
option for them. And it really
speaks to the challenges we face in society

420
00:38:22.679 --> 00:38:27.960
because regardless of where you stand and
the political spectrum, I tend to be

421
00:38:28.840 --> 00:38:35.039
independent, you know, maybe centrist
independent, But regardless of where you stand,

422
00:38:37.000 --> 00:38:43.199
they people agree that we need to
fix the system. And surveys have

423
00:38:43.519 --> 00:38:49.880
looked at, you know, this
issue, and there is consensus on the

424
00:38:49.880 --> 00:38:55.400
need to find better solutions, and
yet we still face this problem after decades

425
00:38:55.559 --> 00:39:02.719
and the US is in a really
bad spot relative to most of the rest

426
00:39:02.719 --> 00:39:09.480
of the world in terms of incarceration. And why is this. It gets

427
00:39:09.559 --> 00:39:17.519
to the fact that we are so
conflicted about how to manage this process.

428
00:39:19.800 --> 00:39:25.119
On the one hand, we believe
that there's this sense of justice being about,

429
00:39:27.239 --> 00:39:30.639
you know, paying a certain price
for your crimes. But on the

430
00:39:30.679 --> 00:39:37.079
other hand, there's another side of
us that that gets to these gut reactions

431
00:39:37.119 --> 00:39:45.039
we have to people who have that
kind of background, and and it gets

432
00:39:45.079 --> 00:39:52.440
to in part one of the things
that gets to is how we way matters

433
00:39:52.480 --> 00:40:00.199
of integrity. If we believe someone
has committed an offense intentionally, there's a

434
00:40:00.360 --> 00:40:07.840
serious uphill battle that we create that
makes it very, very difficult for anyone

435
00:40:07.039 --> 00:40:15.559
to overcome. And so that's the
challenge for us. I don't have a

436
00:40:15.639 --> 00:40:20.679
quick remedy. I mean, there
are people who study that area in particular,

437
00:40:21.239 --> 00:40:24.719
but that chapter in the book was
really designed to explore, well,

438
00:40:24.719 --> 00:40:30.039
what are the things in our mental
basement that's affecting this process. And it

439
00:40:30.039 --> 00:40:32.760
turns out that one of the problems
is that we shift back and forth between

440
00:40:32.800 --> 00:40:37.199
these views. On one hand,
we believe that we need to allow for

441
00:40:37.320 --> 00:40:45.000
redemption. On the other hand,
when something bad happens, we are quite

442
00:40:45.000 --> 00:40:50.920
intolerant of those who might advocate for
our redemption. And the question is,

443
00:40:50.960 --> 00:40:54.400
well, if that's the case,
how do we rectify this problem? And

444
00:40:55.280 --> 00:41:00.320
then the other element of it is
that how we wear manaters of guilt and

445
00:41:00.360 --> 00:41:05.719
redemption? Like the calculus, you
know, what does it take to come

446
00:41:05.760 --> 00:41:13.400
back from something that's terrible, Well, that's affected by other things in our

447
00:41:13.440 --> 00:41:17.800
subconscious that that leads us to to
do that calculus in ways that we don't

448
00:41:17.840 --> 00:41:22.519
even realize. And so many times
when we perceive one another, we can

449
00:41:22.559 --> 00:41:28.880
get to a situation where we might
feel like we have paid the price and

450
00:41:29.320 --> 00:41:35.480
were we should be reintegrated into society, and others have a very different view.

451
00:41:37.000 --> 00:41:40.880
And so that was an attempt to
explore some of those challenges as an

452
00:41:40.920 --> 00:41:50.559
attempt to at least help us better
understand what we need to resolve. I

453
00:41:50.599 --> 00:41:53.199
wanted you to speak about that,
Peter, because I part of what I

454
00:41:53.400 --> 00:41:57.760
what I'm out to do is I
go to speak to audiences about you know,

455
00:41:57.920 --> 00:42:01.480
really elevating business, you know,
from the stakeholder capitalism lens, from

456
00:42:01.519 --> 00:42:05.679
a conscious capitalist lens, the evolved
lens, et cetera. My last book

457
00:42:05.719 --> 00:42:12.079
talks about this, is encouraging employers
to look at to you know, employing

458
00:42:12.159 --> 00:42:16.000
those who have been previously incarcerated,
because it helps strengthen communities. It makes

459
00:42:16.039 --> 00:42:20.360
the world a better place. You
know. If all we're doing is giving

460
00:42:20.400 --> 00:42:22.119
these people just a row back to
where they came, I don't see how

461
00:42:22.159 --> 00:42:27.760
that helps society. So I've been
navocating for this as well. So that's

462
00:42:27.800 --> 00:42:30.079
part of the reason I really wanted
you to speak about that, because I

463
00:42:30.119 --> 00:42:34.920
believe very strongly in this. So
thank you for that. Okay, did

464
00:42:34.960 --> 00:42:37.199
you want to say something else,
Well, I was just going to add,

465
00:42:37.320 --> 00:42:43.039
you know, that is the we
talked about the the virtuous cycle of

466
00:42:43.079 --> 00:42:49.159
trusting others. There's a vicious cycle
when we don't trust others, and it

467
00:42:49.280 --> 00:42:54.320
is easy for people to fulfill that
expectation. And and it doesn't mean that

468
00:42:54.360 --> 00:43:00.000
we just make ourselves vulnerable to everyone
that's released, of course as a day

469
00:43:00.440 --> 00:43:07.719
there, but we do need to
work towards systems that can better manage that

470
00:43:07.760 --> 00:43:14.159
balance. And so I'm so glad
to hear that you are working towards the

471
00:43:14.199 --> 00:43:20.360
same purpose. I think we're a
good pair. Okay, So I have

472
00:43:20.480 --> 00:43:24.840
also seen this research before and what
makes for an effective apology? And you've

473
00:43:24.840 --> 00:43:28.360
got I think it's six components here
and I've seen them before. I think

474
00:43:28.360 --> 00:43:31.000
it bears us talking about them just
briefly, and then I want to also

475
00:43:31.039 --> 00:43:35.400
really talk about the other side of
sometimes why that could be a bad idea,

476
00:43:35.480 --> 00:43:37.039
which you talk about beautiful in your
books. So I know you were

477
00:43:37.039 --> 00:43:42.719
citing the research of Roy Louicki,
Beth Poland, and Robert Lund Junior.

478
00:43:42.760 --> 00:43:47.039
So I want to I know that
you're a very very methodical about your research.

479
00:43:47.360 --> 00:43:51.079
You want to put it off that
this is your saying this, this

480
00:43:51.159 --> 00:43:53.519
is from their advantage point, But
could you talk about those six components of

481
00:43:53.559 --> 00:44:05.320
an apology? So they have identified
these six components from previous studies and they

482
00:44:05.360 --> 00:44:08.159
wanted to explore, well, okay, how important are these components. And

483
00:44:08.239 --> 00:44:17.159
so they had these studies that they
developed using variations of these responses that would

484
00:44:17.199 --> 00:44:24.880
offer just one or multiple components,
and they find that so these six components

485
00:44:24.880 --> 00:44:31.760
are an expression of regret that's number
one. Two, an explanation that conveys

486
00:44:31.880 --> 00:44:37.000
the reasons why the offense occurred.
Number three, an acknowledgement of responsibility.

487
00:44:37.880 --> 00:44:45.440
Number four a declaration of repentance,
number five and offer of repair and number

488
00:44:45.480 --> 00:44:51.000
six a request for forgiveness. And
what the bottom line of the research is

489
00:44:51.039 --> 00:44:54.880
that they find that the more components
are included, the more effective the apology

490
00:44:55.079 --> 00:45:01.760
is. And if you were to
think about the specific components, the acknowledgment

491
00:45:01.800 --> 00:45:07.239
of responsibility and the offer of repair
were the most important in their studies.

492
00:45:08.079 --> 00:45:15.719
So that is an indication that the
type of apology can matter. And I

493
00:45:15.760 --> 00:45:22.119
do know of various efforts to help
people apologize more effectively. I think in

494
00:45:22.199 --> 00:45:30.800
hospitals with doctors, there is a
recognition that after medical errors, getting a

495
00:45:30.840 --> 00:45:37.400
doctor to apologize can in some instances
be very helpful in terms of reducing the

496
00:45:37.440 --> 00:45:42.039
likelihood of litigation and so on.
But the apology needs to be conveyed effectively,

497
00:45:42.079 --> 00:45:46.599
and so there's some attempt to do
that. But the other side of

498
00:45:46.639 --> 00:45:52.400
the coin that my research raises is
that if you just focus on the apology,

499
00:45:53.280 --> 00:45:59.360
then you are missing a big part
of the equation. It's like going

500
00:45:59.360 --> 00:46:04.480
back to your driving illustration at the
beginning. If you were to drive on

501
00:46:04.599 --> 00:46:08.159
a road trying to avoid traffic accidents
by only looking straight ahead and ignoring the

502
00:46:08.199 --> 00:46:15.840
cross traffic. That would be a
really bad idea. You'd risk being involved

503
00:46:15.840 --> 00:46:20.599
in a side collision. And it's
the same thing for attempts to repair trust.

504
00:46:20.719 --> 00:46:29.000
If you just focus on how thorough
the apology is, you may wind

505
00:46:29.079 --> 00:46:36.840
up quite surprised to to witness that
that it actually made things worse. And

506
00:46:36.960 --> 00:46:42.360
there are plenty of incidents that the
book points to that that that illustrates this

507
00:46:42.440 --> 00:46:47.440
point. The reason why we focus
on apologies as sort of the main remedy

508
00:46:47.880 --> 00:46:52.760
is the result of the tailanol pill
tampering case that occurred in Chicago decades ago.

509
00:46:53.639 --> 00:46:57.679
To talk about your book, yeah, yeah, yeah, And and

510
00:46:57.840 --> 00:47:04.920
it can help in many instances.
What a lot of the the attempts to

511
00:47:04.920 --> 00:47:12.000
apply that lesson overlook is that there
was a specific type of violation involved here,

512
00:47:12.119 --> 00:47:17.079
and it was a competence based violation. And you know what, for

513
00:47:17.199 --> 00:47:23.039
matters of competence and apology is effective
because we don't weigh the negative information about

514
00:47:23.039 --> 00:47:30.320
guilt as heavily as a positive information
about redemption. And so by Johnson and

515
00:47:30.400 --> 00:47:36.239
Johnson Johnson taking full ownership over what
happened, we believe that they're going to

516
00:47:36.280 --> 00:47:40.639
fix the problem. But for matters
of integrity that relationships have reversed. So

517
00:47:40.679 --> 00:47:46.800
we focus on the negative confirmation of
guilt and we discount positive signals of redemption.

518
00:47:47.400 --> 00:47:52.719
And that's why you need to have
a better sense of how the situation's

519
00:47:52.800 --> 00:48:00.519
viewed, how the violation is viewed
before you you think about what kind of

520
00:48:00.519 --> 00:48:06.079
response may be appropriate. And there, Doctor Kim, is why I believe

521
00:48:06.159 --> 00:48:10.039
your work is revolutionary. You really
can radically change and improve the world if

522
00:48:10.039 --> 00:48:15.480
people will will embrace what you have
taught us. And that's I really believe

523
00:48:15.519 --> 00:48:16.480
that. So I want to say
thank you for coming out and working and

524
00:48:16.480 --> 00:48:21.400
purpose for writing this beautiful book.
I think your work is profoundly important and

525
00:48:21.400 --> 00:48:23.199
I'm very happy to share my listeners
and viewers across the world and working in

526
00:48:23.280 --> 00:48:28.239
purpose. Thank you, doctor Cortez, It's been a pleasure chatting with you,

527
00:48:29.599 --> 00:48:31.679
listeners and viewer. If you want
to learn more about this magnificent man,

528
00:48:31.760 --> 00:48:36.239
doctor Peter Kim, his research in
trust, or his book How Trust

529
00:48:36.320 --> 00:48:38.440
Works, The Science of how Relationships
are built, broken, and repaired,

530
00:48:38.800 --> 00:48:44.079
start by visiting his site, which
is Peter h Kim dot com. Again

531
00:48:44.159 --> 00:48:49.039
Peter the initial h Kim dot com
last week If you missed the live show

532
00:48:49.039 --> 00:48:52.119
you can always catch it be recorded
podcast where on the air of Steve Farrell

533
00:48:52.199 --> 00:48:57.079
talking about his book A New Universal
Dream and the nonprofit that he started called

534
00:48:57.159 --> 00:49:00.320
Humanity's Team. We learned about the
work he and the Humanity's Team are doing

535
00:49:00.360 --> 00:49:06.320
in transformational education to elevate people towards
a sacred understanding of the oneness and beautiful

536
00:49:06.320 --> 00:49:08.800
interdependence of all life forms. Why
is that important? Because when we can

537
00:49:08.840 --> 00:49:15.599
actually focus on serving others beyond ourselves
in self transcendence, everybody wins. Next

538
00:49:15.639 --> 00:49:17.840
week, we'll be on the air
with doctor Matt post Popsul talking about his

539
00:49:17.920 --> 00:49:22.119
new book, Expand the Circle and
light leadership for our own world of work.

540
00:49:22.679 --> 00:49:25.119
See you there, and remember work
is an essential part of our lives,

541
00:49:25.159 --> 00:49:28.519
ultimately the way we spend our lives
and can be one of the best

542
00:49:28.559 --> 00:49:31.239
adventures and means of realizing our potential
and making the impact we crave. So

543
00:49:31.360 --> 00:49:38.000
let's work on Purpose. We hope
you've enjoyed this week's program. Be sure

544
00:49:38.039 --> 00:49:43.440
to tune into Working on Purpose featuring
your host, doctor Elise Cortez each week

545
00:49:43.480 --> 00:49:46.679
on W four C. Why Together, We'll create a world where business operates

546
00:49:46.679 --> 00:49:52.440
conscientiously leadership inspires and passion performance and
employees are fulfilled in work that provides the

547
00:49:52.480 --> 00:49:57.599
meaning and purpose. They crave see
you there. Let's work on purpose.