Have You Given Up? Learn to Avoid “the Swipe” in Pursuit of Your Most Cherished Dreams

0:00 The topics and opinions express in the following show are solely those of the hosts and their guests and not those of W FOURCY Radio. It's employees are affiliates. We make no recommendations or endorsements for radio show programs, services, or products mentioned on air or on our web. No liability, explicit or implied shall be extended to W FOURCY Radio or its employees are affiliates. Any questions or comments should be directed to those show hosts. Thank you for choosing W FOURCY Radio. What's working on Purpose? Anyway? Each week we ponder the answer to this question. People ache for meaning and purpose at work, to contribute their talents passionately and know their lives really matter. They crave being part of an organization that inspires them and helps them grow into realizing their highest potential.

0:45 Business can be such a force for good in the world, elevating humanity. In our program, we provide guidance and inspiration to help usher in this world we all want working on Purpose. Now here's your host, doctor Elise Cortes. Welcome back to the Working and Purpose Program, which is then brought to you with passionate and prize. Since February of twenty fifteen. Thanks for turning it again this week. Great to have you. I am your host doctor at least Cortes. If we've not met before and you don't know me, I'm an organizational psychologist and logo therapist, speaker and author. My team and I at Gusto Now help companies to uenlive it and fortify their operations by building a culture and leadership activated by meaning and purpose. Our mission is to help our clients create a destination workplace where people flock to join, are intrinsically motivated to perform at their best, can grow into their floor potential, and are committed to stay at Jenamic deliver on the company's mission, which translates to higher profits for you. You learn more about us and now we can work together at gusteaudeshnow dot com or Alascortes dot com. Now getting into today's program with me tonight tonight is Tim Van Dehey. He is a New York Times best selling ghostwriter and co author with about seventy non fiction books to his credit.

1:56 He is also the co author, alongside doctor Tracy Mayleett, of SWI, The Science Behind Why We Don't Finish what we start, which helps us to understand the science behind why we quit on important life goals and projects, and how we can learn to avoid this psychological phenomenon and stay on track to focus and realize what we actually want in our lives. We'll be diving into its contents in today's conversation. Tim jog is today from Kansas City, Missouri. Tim, Welcome to Working on Purpose. Thanks Elyse. It's great to be here. And I have to say, go chiefs. Okay, we must say it, go cheese, we must. I'm down with that. As I said to you before we got on air, I really really enjoyed your book. You're in Tracy's book. I just really applaud what you've done, the research. You know. Increasingly, this show is really designed to showcase psychological principles that really elevate how we perform and connect. And I got to tell you I learned so much Tim that I hope will help me get my next book written. Well that you know, that's funny, did you say that? Because that was one of the one of the first directions we took the questions that led to this book and was looking at you know, I live in a world of writers twenty four to seven, including myself.

3:04 So one of the first things I drew on was, I know so many writers or or would be writers in some cases, who are always talking about the work they're going to finish, but never finish it. Yep. And so it's you know, which it's a that's very much a thing. I mean, I have books I've never finished, you know. And and so that that was one of the one of the questions that sort of led us down the path to this book because it didn't start out that the book you're holding did not start out as the book you're holding. They started out as something different. Well, let's just go there really quick. What what what was? What did it start out as? That was? That was pretty much a leading kind of a kind of a leader. Yeah, I got I gotta go there, ask Ball across the middle of the plate. No.

3:46 So, Tracy, doctor Tracy May, my writing partner, longtime friend and client. He and I had written two other books together about employee engagement, you know, topic that I know you're very familiar with, and we were the very beginning of twenty twenty, really before the world shut down. We met here in Kansas City, and we talked about a third book, and we were going to do a book about the employee side of the engagement question. The first two books we've done a bit about the employer side, how to employers keep or attempt to keep their people engaged and meaning, you know, and purposeful and enjoying the work and you know, staying with the organization. And we had we had this idea, We had a word, we had a swipe, which we looked at as a shorthand for the distractability of most of us when faced with the you know, the the infinite possibilities of the smartphone. Really, that was what we came up with. And we liked the idea. We like the concept, we liked the title.

4:41 We thought, okay, we can do something with that, and we mapped out a lot of ideas and went our separate ways. And as the pandemic wore on, and as we sort of chewed on the ideas individually, we both kind of reached the same conclusion, which was, this is not just a business book. This is a sort of everybody book. That's right, right, because what we saw was all the people. This was this was people we knew, This was people we connected with professionally. This was stand up comedians we saw on Netflix and YouTube and so on. Everybody was talking about the same thing. All the things I had in mind to do during the when I was stuck at home, and all the stuff that I didn't do. I mean, Patton Oswald has a great routine about it. We talked about, you know, you'd see a man thirty pounds letter who had become an expert Italian baker, and so on and so on and so on, and it was almost universal phenomenon and the people not people having all these goals and not finishing some or most or any of them. And we thought, there's something here that we're that nobody's really tapped into. And that's of course for me, that's that's catnip, because when you're when you're a writer the nonf world, you're always looking for an idea that no one else has really dug into, and someone else had really dug into this specific phenomenon of why don't we finish it? Not the same, it's not the same, is procrastination, it's something else. Yes, So that was where the book became a bigger book. You know, it still has a strong organizational bent to it, but it's really a book for anybody because I think I can't

6:12 think of a person who doesn't deal with this. Yeah, no doubt, Guilty as charged. Okay, well let's get into it. I love hearing about where that came from. That's fantastic. So what I thought was interesting is at first I thought this was going to be, you know, just this idea of you know this swiping. I know what swiping is, of course, I know what that is from an app advantage point. But for our audience, who hasn't yet read your book yet, Tim, would you just define what you mean by swipe? What is swipe? Sure? So the act of swiping, we call it the swipe as a noun, swiping as a verb is essentially it is reflexive running away from things that we find uncomfortable, disillusioning, frustrating. The reason that we used the words swipe, and the reason that we did not run away from the connection to the smartphone is because the smartphone is what made us think of it. The smartphone has, as lots of research has shown now, is sort of rewiring our brains to a degree. That's a bit of an overstatem, but it's definitely rewiring our attention. It is affecting how we pay attention to things, and it's affecting our perception of our options for where to put that attention. So, because the swipe is an unconscious act, so all the infinite world that resides inside the smartphone. Over the past you know what, has it been seventeen years since the introduction of the iPhone has given us this unconscious sensation that if

7:47 we're not comfortable with our current experience, it's simply the matter of swiping our finger or tapping an app that we can change that experience. And we've gotten to the point where we do that on We don't literally say I'm not comfortable on this date and swipe our phone and expect to open our eyes and magically be somewhere else where we're not having a bad date. That would be crazy, but we do it anyway. And one of the best examples is and I've I've I've done this myself hundreds of times, and I've every time I talk to this, talk about people with this, I get a chuckle of recognition, which is if I'm writing something, you know, spending my entire life on you know, typing on computers, if I'm writing something by hand on a yellow pad or something like that, if I make a mistake, I cannot tell you how many times I have just for one split second, looked for the undue function, realizing smacking myself on the forehead and saying, well, there's no undue function. You dope. You're writing by pencil, and you have to erase and go back. But that split second is the conditioning. That's the conditioning that says, oh, I can I can undo something I'm not happy with with a simple flick of a finger. That's the thing we're talking about. So that is swiping. Swiping in the context of this book, in particular, is the reflexive, unconscious, instantaneous bolting from an experience that we are where we are currently uncomfortable and how that affects us in terms of what we don't finish. Is finishing things we've never done before

9:20 is hard, and it can make us anywhere from embarrassed to feeling imposter syndrome, too frustrated, to disillusioned. And in those moments we quit. Now frequently we regret it. That's the downside, one of the many downsides. But in the moment we say I don't want to do this anymore, and we immediately let it go. We go on to something else, only later on saying, you know, maybe I should have stuck up that workout program because I'd be in shape by now. Or definitely no, maybe I should have written those extra those last twenty five thousand words. I'd have a finished novel by now. We don't get there because we swipe. All right, Dan Pink wrote a whole book about regreat just for that matter for us.

10:01 Thanks Dan Pink. So a couple things that you wrote along that line, because I had a whole idea of you know, why is wiping so problematic? And you just laid that out for us. We don't actually realize, you know, our dreams, our goals, but I really appreciate what you also delin needed here. Let me just read a couple things that really resonated for me here, Tim you say, swiping equals disengagement from the deep, meaningful experiences of life and work, which inevitably leads to unhappiness and disappointment. I also might add misery. And then the other thing that you said that I really align with, especially as a logo therapist, which is about vitalizing through meaning and the need to be of service to others. Is you say human beings are at our best or striving working to overcome obstacles when our backs are against the wall, that's when we find courage and creativity we didn't know we had. But without that tension and resolution, it's easy to become apathetic and defeatist. Over time, this leads to regret, dissatisfaction, and happiness.

10:56 Amen. Brother, That's exactly how I see it as well, and talk about it as well. Yeah, I mean, I mean, you know that's I mean, that's a play on you know, that's a play on the old but very very true idea that you know, growth happens in the uncomfortable. Absolutely right now, I have two teenage daughters. I'm trying to share that with them all the time, as far as you know, tackling new experiences like that's when you feel that that sense of uncomfortable, of discomfort in the pit of your stomach, that's a signal to go forward, not to go back. I still struggle with that. I mean, we all do well. I mean, I've I have you know, I've I considered myself, you know, fairly enlightened about my own responses to uncomfortable situations. But we all I struggle with that. I struggle to make myself remember that, as I think everybody does. And but that is that is the fundamental truth of what we of, where where we should be, and what we give up, because as as as I've said swiping the thing, the things that we that we want to accomplish that we give up are in general, things that we've either never tried before or things that are somewhat beyond our current capacity that we hope we can develop the capacity to do. So a perfect example of that would be training for some sort of event like a race or a marathon. Right when you start off, you don't have the capacity to run that race. Otherwise you wouldn't need to train the way you do.

12:18 I mean, you might need to if you've done one before, but odds are you have it. Most people I know who've trained for a long race, once they do it, they can't wait to do another one because they realized they could do it, even for something as simple as a five k. So you have to get into that mode where you're pushing yourself into uncomfortable territory with each and every training run just a little farther, a little farther, a little farther, and that, by definition is uncomfortable because you've never done it before. And it gets even harder when the failures have been repeated, because then people start to fall into fatalism. I know so many writers who, because they sort of somebody writers I know, fails, They fall into that trap that being a writer equals being a novelist, which drives me crazy. I've never written a novel in my life. I've written all non fiction books, but yeah, neither have I will probably And I know people who are not suited to be novelists. They if they're good writers in their field, but they really, really, they think I have to write a novel. I keep telling them they don't, but for some reason, I don't listen to me. They're like my daughters, and you know, but they but they've tried again and again and again, and they keep failing.

13:26 It's just not something that suits their talent. And they have talent. But the more times they fail, every time they fail, it drives it drives another another nail into that coffin of their of their intention because they start to they start to believe fatalistically that I can't do this while we do this, and eventually they just give up altogether, where and probably they give up entirely, they get a writing period because they have this misconception. So you know, there's a tremendous amount of growth to be had in those areas where we are striving and where we are overcoming obstacles getting there, and accepting that that those growth experiences are going to be frustrating and disillusioning sometimes is really what the book's about. Well, and the reason I wanted to have you on Sam, especially once I really understood what the book was about, is that I want to help more people realize that game of life, that that one precious life that they have, what do they want to do with that life?

14:22 Right? So many people are walking through dead, through life dead and they just don't know it, and they're they're missing so much of their potential. And so what I believe you've done in this book, Tim is I believe you guys together have created a work that really helps us understand how our minds limit us and how can we actually set ourselves on fire and achieve much more than say something Thos really extraordinary people who walk the planet actually do, and I think that that's a tremendous contribution. Well, thank you, that's awesome to do. That's what we hope to one of the things we hope to do. Anyway, I know, I got it. I got it, man, I got the message. I'm in. We wanted to shut light on something that nobody else was talking about. You know. One of the challenges in writing this was there is almost no research about this particular topic.

15:09 So we had to sort of put things together, you know, that were based on attention and some things that were that looked at procrastination, and some things that looked at reward and regret. You know, we had to sort of cobble things together because there has been almost no research on this particular topic, which was both attractive and a challenge. I gotcha. Well, on that note, let's let our listeners and viewers just kind of think about where they might be stuck and missing out and what they really want to accomplish and grab our first break. I'm your host, doctor Reli's Cortez. We've got on here with Tim Vanda Hay. He's a New York Times bestselling ghostwriter and co author with seventy nonfiction books to his credit. He is the co author, alongside doctor Tracy mayleett Swipe, The Science behind Why we Don't Finish what we start. We've been talking a bit about where this book came from, why it's important, how all of us are falling prey to swiping after rack. We're going to get into learning how not to swipe. Stay with us, will be right back. Doctor Elise Cortes is a management consultant specializing in meaning and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author, she helps companies visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite a lease to speak to your organization, please visit her at Elisecortes

16:41 dot com. Let's talk about how to get your employees working on purpose. This is working on Purpose with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or to open a conversation with Elise, send an email to a lease a LISEE at a Leastcortes dot com. Now back to working on purpose. Thanks for staying with us, and welcome back. To working on purpose. I'm your host, doctor Elise Cortes, as I too, am dedicated to helping to create a world where people realize their potential at work. They're led by inspirational leaders that help them find and contribute their greatness. And we do business at Betters the World. I keep researching and writing my own books, So the latest one that I came out with was in March of twenty twenty three.

17:32 It's called The Great Revitalization. How activating media and Purpose can radically in liven your business. And I wrote it to help leaders really understand the changed workforce and what it is they really want from you. And then I'm giving you twenty two best practices to help help equip your culture to create that for them. You can find more more about my books at my website's gustodeshnow dot com or on Amazon if you are just now joining us. My guest is Tim Vanda Hay. He is co author with Tracy Mayleett of Swipe, The Science Behind Why We Don't Fit Ish What we start so fascinating, and what I also appreciate here is that you don't just tell us about how bad this is. I want to talk more about some of the kinds of swipes and things like that. But let's first start with a little bit of hope, shall we, and that is how not to swipe? So you give us some interesting ideas around some swipe insurance here, So how can we not swipe?

18:22 That is the that's really the question, right and one one of the that's probably been the most common compliment that's been been lovely to receive that we've heard from people who read the book, which has been you know, thank you for identifying something that I didn't even know was a thing, and that there's actually that is that can actually be changed, because the sense of helplessness around this is extraordinary. You know, as I said, the more people try things and fail at them, the more fatalism kicks in. Faialism is really the final stage of swiping, which is I I you know, I can't do this. I'm I'm it's it's really a judgment of oneself. I'm not a writer, I'm not a runner. I'm never going to be able to do X. I'm never gonna I'm not I'm not a business owner.

19:17 You know, Swiping effects all kinds of things, including you know, that's that's starting that business that you've never started that sort of thing. So yeah, there are a lot of There are a lot of sort of base level UH skills, base level ideas. One of the ones that that that we talk about in the book is what we call we use the acronym deo d a IO, which means don't assume you're the outlier. And I'm not going to sing the song because I'm not Harry Belafonte, but you know, it's basically that you're not the only one that everyone does this one. I mean we all do it, every single one of us does it. But also the corollary to that is there's no one solution that works for everyone. There's no one set of motivations. There's no one set of plans or tools that got your neighbor going on his project but doesn't necessarily work for you. It's a it is a bit of trial and error. There is no one way to get this right. But when you when we get to the to the big picture, there are really two pieces to this that can help people manage swiping. One is to take conscious control of expectations. Expectations are when it comes to to projects. Two goals to purpose they're like they can be like

20:48 land mines, and they frequently are. Because it's it's human nature to set our expectations higher. It's based on not just higher, but based on what based on the ideal that we think we can achieve, and of course if we fall short of that ideal, we're disappointed. You know, if we lose a pound of a pound a week instead of two pounds a week, well, a pound a week is pretty good, but if your expectation was I'm going to lose two pounds a week, you're going to be disappointed, disillusioned, and maybe quit. You know, there's a there's a whole there's a whole linear progression of the swipe, and it goes like this. It starts off with what I call page one energy, which is when you first start off doing something, even if you've done it ten times before, you're fired up. You're convinced this is going to be the time I get it right. That's what the expectations become irrational frequently and you start off and what we call the downhill, which is you're still fired up. Initially, it's new, it's interesting, you're getting maybe you're not getting results yet, but things haven't gotten boring yet. You're anticipating the results coming quickly, whether you're writing the first chapter of a novel, whether you're starting a workout program, et cetera, et cetera. And it's easier in the beginning, and then eventually, usually a few weeks in, typically two three weeks into whatever it is you're doing, reality sets in and you hit that bottom of the hill and start going uphill, and the exaltation fades. You've written all the you've

22:23 written the first fifty pages of your novel, and you're out of ideas and you didn't do any planning, so now what do I do next? Or you've worked out for two weeks and you're still not jacked, because you don't get jacked in two weeks, and you look at yourself in the mirror and go, what have I been doing for the last two weeks? Busting my butt? And then it starts to become work and you don't necessarily feel like you're getting anywhere, and you're huffing, and you're puffing, and you're on the uphill. You're on the uphill now. And if you have expectations that are on in line with that experience, which is completely predictable, then you are almost certainly going to become disillusioned or embarrassed and and swipe going to hit the eject button what I like to call it, and say I'm done, I can't do this, and it's you know, it's a reflexive thing.

23:14 So managing expectations is critical. What are your Are your expectations in line with with reality when it comes to a what you're going to experience and be with what your results are likely to be. It's really it's incredibly important to to talk to other people who have tried to do what you're trying to do. What was it like? What was their experience like, what were the hours, what were what what? How did they feel after a day of writing or a day of building their their home home improvement project, or a day of working on starting their business? And what were what were the results like? How quickly did they start to get fit and lose weight? How quickly did they see a change in the mirror, and so on. Having having expectations that are in line with reality there congruent with reality is absolutely crucial.

24:03 The other other half of this is motivation, and motivation is a notoriously unreliable thing. You know. I'm actually not a huge believer that motivation can make that much of a difference for people. However, it can make a difference if your motivation is the right motivation. What we see, unfortunately, is especially in the age of social media, as people doing things for the wrong reasons, not because they really want it, not because they're they're not getting in shape because they want to be healthy to watch their kids grow up and be able to play, you know, be able to play sports with their their son when he's in high school. They're doing it because of what their friends are doing, or they're doing it because of what they see on Instagram.

24:49 So the motivation has to be in line with what really motivates you intrinsically, something you're passionate about, something that you're purposeful about, something that you can't not do, and sometimes that is not what you think you're supposed to do. One of my favorite sayings to that I throw at my teenage daughters is stop shooting all over yourself. You've probably heard that one. Absolutely that word should is a terrible word. Strike it from your vocabulary just because you feel like you should write a novel because everyone else you know, has doesn't mean that you should. It doesn't mean that that's the best way for you to spend your time. Maybe you're not a novelist, even though you wish you think you should be. That is a terrible, terrible word. I wish people would stop using it. So those are probably the keys in terms of sort of large scale self management and self regulation that people can apply to giving themselves better odds of not swiping. Okay, got it, beautiful, Tim, That was extremely well explained. Okay, So as I as you going there, what I recognized is you you were also helping us a little bit. You got halfway through the hamster wheel, didn't you. So you went down the want and then you went down the downhill, you went the uphill. So let's go ahead and finish out the hamster wheel. So, ladies and gentlemen, what Tim and Tracy have done is they have really helped lay out just what happens when we when we swipe, and so you really

26:21 recognize where you are in the process. So Tim just got us halfway through the hamster wheel. Now if we take it all the way through, so we recognize what happens when we what we do with that crossroads, So if you would finish that up for us. Now we've were stuck there, We're like, all right, I've spent some time with this, I've toiled, and I don't like where I'm going. This looks like impossible. Now we're crossroads. What do we do? Yeah, the crossroads, thanks for getting me there, because I got you too. We got to continue that down that road or not, no pun intended. Yeah, the crossroads is the classic you know road, not the classic Robert Frost road not taken. So that's you know, that's the point where you're faced with that, and then let me backtrack because the decision is the wrong word. Here. You're faced with that and in some circumstances impulse. Okay, so let's so let's let's talk about the difference between the two. You are you have experienced that that that that exaltation, that dose of reality in your face, where oh this is going to be so much harder than I thought it was going to be and it's going to take longer than I thought it was going to be.

27:26 I've told people I'm going to be done. Social embarrassment of big a big issue here. And then you reach that point where you are tempted to swipe, where uh, the disillusionment, the frustration, just the difficulty the effort reach a critical mass. The difference here between decision and impulse is absolutely critical because that this is the point where on one branch of this crossroads you go to the right. You continue trying what you're doing, what you're trying to do, whether whether it's bumbling or not, whether you're not know that you're sure what you're doing or not, it doesn't matter. It's continuing that matters. It's effort and consistency that matters. I mean personal trainers love to say consistent that Shakespeare and consistency, though are to jewel. Consistency is everything, showing up is everything on the left is probably not my left when I'm on the screen, but this is my left. Is when you swipe and you say you're done, and you you jump off, you jump off the wheel and you're and you're you quit yet again, the difference there is impulse versus decision. The swipe is an impulse. The swipe is a it's an unconscious system, you know System one, Daniel Connum and the system one. It's a reflex. It's not something that you're in control of. It's something your brain is saying, act discomfort. I don't like this. Eject button, and you're off and you're done, and you do it without thinking about it, and only afterwards you do you feel. We're back to that word,

28:57 which is regret. I cannot tell you how many people I've talked to and coached over the years as a writer who have told me how much they regretted stopping a certain manuscript part way through because they didn't know where to go. They put it down. Oh, I'll get back to it. No you won't. Oh you won't. You really won't. You'll move on to other things, and you'll get back to another two years later, thinking somehow it's going to be different. It's not going to be different, not until you change. How you responded is to these very natural feelings of discomfort. You're getting get the same result, and they regret because they if they had kept going, the results would have been completely different. They would have finished something. I mean, that's why. One of the things, one of the things that spurred this was National Novel Writing Month. I remember that, yet we started the book talking to one of the founders of National Novel Writing month, and that exists because finishing something is really what it's all about. It's getting something done. I mean, you know, with National Novel Writing Month, quality is not the issue. Most of those books are terrible. A few of them have been good, and most are bad. That's not the point. The point is writing a fifty thousand word novel in thirty days because you want to finish something. It's so that's that's such the holy grail for people. Well, and the agency that that gives for that person across the rest of their lives that they can then activate. That's where I get excited.

30:18 Tim Well, it's a change, I mean, it's it's an identity shift. Yeah, absolutely, No, I'm not a loser anymore. I'm not a twitter I'm not a novelist, or I'm a marathoner. Yeah, I'm an entrepreneur, I'm a small business owner. It's an identity shift. So, you know, going back to the crossroads, the difference comes when we when we have conscious control and conscious igency control, conscious awareness of the precursors to the swipe, those the rationalizations and the self defeating language and all of the clues that this is where it helps to look at what you've done in the past. How you know when you when you're aware of of the the conditions and the thought patterns and the language that you use with yourself, which is frequently so so self lacerating. I tell people all the time, if you don't want to swipe, one other ways not do it is to be kind to yourself, Speak kindly to yourself, make yourself talk you know more more forgiving. But when you start to see those signs that you know you can you can identify when you're approaching that swipe territory, when you're approaching that same level that the discomfort is building up until it reaches that critical mass and you slam the eject button. You can make a conscious decision to say, whoa, Okay, I know what's coming. I'm not going to do

31:48 that. Instead of an impulse, you're turning it over to system two, which is the analytical, you know, the fore brain, the analytical executive part of the brain that saying I'm not going to do that because I know if I go down this other and keep going, yes, I'm still going to feel discomfort, but I will there is a growth at the end of it. As psychologist Tracy knows the exactly, but it's something like project to the end or something like that. I forget the exact term. I'm not a psychologist, but you know, if you if you look to to the end of that path, you can see. Yes, there will be other points where you need to keep from swiping. But if I get, if I can keep going, I will be changed. I will have a different experience. I won't have regret. I will finish this somehow, even if I you know, even if I run my marathon and come in last, I finished. Who cares if I came in last? I finished? So critical And that's and that's that's life changing. And on that note, let's let our listeners viewers think about this for a second. How can you change your life by following what we're talking about here in this book called Swipe literally can change your life. I'm Eilis Cortez, your host. We were on the air with Tim Van der Hay. He's a New York Times best selling ghostwriter and co author with seventy nonfiction books to his credit. He's also the co author, alongside doctor Tracy Maylett, of Swipe, The Science behind Why we don't finish what we start so after the break we'll talk a little bit more about some of these things that the kinds of swipes, so you start to recognize, Oh, that's me. We'll be right back. Doctor Elise

33:30 Cortez is a management consultant specializing in meaning and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author, she helps companies visioneer for a greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite a lease to speak to your organization, please visit her at Elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get your employees working on purpose. This is working on Purpose with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or to open a conversation with Elise, send an email to Elise Alise at eliscortes dot com. Now back to working on Purpose. Thanks for staying with us, and welcome back to Working on Purpose. I'm your host, doctor Elise Cortes. As I mentioned in the last break that my latest book came out in March of twenty twenty three, The Great Vitalization. What I did for you to go along with that is, I created a three page assessment for you. You can download it from my website gustodesh now dot com, and that will help you understand the extent to which your current culture is actually ready for today's workforce if you are just now joining us. My guest is Tim Vanda Hay. He is the co author of Swipe The Science behind Why we Don't Finish what we start. So there's four things I want to be sure and cover at this part of this for this last little bit of our of our show here, Tim, So the first thing I want to cover just quickly, would you just share a

35:01 few of the kinds of swipes that you mentioned, And that looks like there's about six or seven of them. We won't have time to go through all of them, but can you just share a few of them? Sure? Sure? A lot of these Number one were named to be fun and memorable, all right, got that, I totally did. Yes. Number two, A lot of these were named with the organ with organizational settings in mind, because you know, part of this book was intended for people in the workplace in a career in a career setting. They apply outside the workplace, but I think they're especially irrelevant in the workplace, So let me just get that that disclaimer in there. So let's see. The most common one we talk about is the intimate what we call the intimidation swipe, and that's where you're trying something that you that you feel is beyond your capacity. Doesn't necessarily have to apply in the workplace, it frequently does. Someone is tasked with a project or a role that is that's difficult for them, that challenges their abilities, and they fall prey to lack of confidence, to imposter syndrome, and they they you know, they swipe and feel like I can't do this, and they bail out on the project. But also applies to something like again writing a book, training for a marathon or something like that, anything where you feel like this is I don't I don't have the ability to do this. The doubt creeps in and then you're it's probably a lost cause at that point because it's very hard to recover that when you're when you're doing something that's already hard. The progress through that something generally doesn't make you feel more

36:36 confident in your ability to do it if your confidence is already shaky. Another one is the on what we call the onwe swipe, which is you've gotten through the initial phase and now it's just tedium. It's you're slogging your way through something that was once interesting and fulfilling and now it is just it's boring. It's uh. I compare this to what I learned when I had to learn to read music. It was really cool, but at first, and then it was just going through exercises and after exercises, after exercises, and I just did I wanted to be able to know how to read music as fast as my musician friends. And it's just that is the point where he's like, I can't do this anymore. I'm I'm you're You're this much closer, but it's just so dull and so uninteresting that you can't focus on the goal. So that's the unwee swipe. I've got to talk about the inspector.

37:30 The the inspectors have air swipe one is the one everybody seems to talk about because of the name, and this is the one that particularly applies to writers in a lot of cases. But it's when people fear reaching the goal of air from you know, you know, it's once he caught or once he found out that he you know, that his his pursuit of Jean Valjean was unjust over all the years basically his life had no meaning anymore. He killed himself sorry spoiler alert. And so this is a case where people are afraid to finish what they what they have been working toward, because then they have to they have to perform, you know, have to show. You have to if you finish your novel, you don't get to be a novelist in a novelist in waiting anymore. I'm just working on my novel. You get to tell people that for five years. Once you finish, you have to show it to people. Oh my god, people might have to might actually read it and give me feedback. Oh dear lord. No. So that's that's an unusual one, but it's definitely a real thing. We've seen it in people. And I'll choose one more. I think it's probably I like I like the trapped animal swipe a lot, which is the one where someone is doing something. This is this is one of the ones that comes back to motivation. People who are doing something not because it because they it's meaningful to them, but because they think they're supposed to usually usually to please someone else or to make themselves look good socially. So it's the the kid who's going to law school who hates the idea of law school, or the

39:01 person moving, you know, relocating to a certain place because their spouse wants to go there even though they have no interest in going there. That those are very That's an incredibly disruptive site because a lot of the time the things that people are, the goals that people are pursuing under those circumstances are huge, you know, you know, getting married, going to university, et cetera, and going in that direction, and then then curtailing that can have massive implications for you know, everything from people's finances to their relationships. That's that's a tough one. Okay, that was great, Tim. I think a lot of our listeners viewers that can really resonate with, like, oh, I find myself in that, So thank you for bringing it home so they could relate to it even better. So two things left that I really want to make sure and treating. One is that I really love I love acronyms, right, I love anything that gives us access to do something with an acronym. So, as you said, you did write this book here because you were initially starting to look at employee engagement, and so of course that's a lot of my jam. So I really like what you came up with here with this acronym, that we can actually help employees find you know, meaning and find connection and engagement in their work through this. It just takes magic, that's all, and just magic. And so will you talk us through your magic acronym here of what that really takes to really engage the heart's, mind, spirits, and hands. Absolutely absolutely, So magic was something that that's Tracy's brain child, so I have to give him full credit for coming up with that idea. The acronym was actually believe it or not,

40:35 most people don't believe it, but it was. It was fortuitous. Once were arranged the letters in the right the right order, it became magical. Wow, that's pretty cool. So yeah, but that is the formula for employee engagement. And you know, engagement is one of the one of the antidotes in the workplace for swiping. If you're engaged, then you're going to persist through the discomfort, through the frustration, through the disc illusionment. So the M stands for meeting which is about again finding meaning and what's the larger purpose, what's the larger reason that you're doing what you're doing. And these are all things that employers can help employees find through various programs, but it's also something things that there's all the things that employee is happy responsible for for themselves. They need to seek seek them out and and lean into them when they find them. The A and magic is for autonomy, which is the sense of being self directed. I'm in charge of my I'm captain of my own ship. I have some ability to steer myself through my career and make my own choices. And it could be as that could be as simple as you know, being self directed at work. You're not being a boss hovering over your shoulder all the time. G is growth, which is fairly I think, fairly self explanatory. It represents the opportunities to grow professionally, to grow in terms of leadership, ability, to grow in terms of you know, personal personal skills and capacity. There should be the opportunity. Organizations where people have the opportunity to grow both as a person and a professional tend

42:08 to be organizations with high levels of engagement. The eye is impact which is people want to see that their work has a positive effect on the world. They don't just want to be nobody wants to think they're just in a cubicle farm shuffling widgets. They want to see that the work actually impacts other human beings and impacts the world in a meaningful way. And then see as connection, which is connection with the other people in the organization. It's that tribal band of brothers, we're all in this together feeling. So when those five things are present, when those five qualities are present, people tend to stay extremely engaged and they do not swipe, or at least they swipe much much, much, much less. And of course, you know today with the issues organizations have retaining talent, that's an issue. Yeah, beautiful, Tim, I think it's just it's I'm spot on, totally aligned, completely love it. Now you've you've queued this up for us, which I really wanted to take home as well, because I'm terribly peek about this. You may may not know this, Tim, but I am an identity and a meaning and work researcher. So the identity piece is really important to me. But then you take it and you distinguish happiness and a meaningful life. And I think that we have to talk about that because I personally think I align with I forget what the name of the author is who says that we're overly fixated on happiness today. I completely agree that we are. So could you distinguish for us the difference between happiness and a meaningful life? That's a big one.

43:40 Well, I mean, I think, you know, I think the biggest difference when in the context of this idea in this book is, you know, happiness. I consider happiness to be transitory. It's a transit, it's a trans state. I can be happy temporary if I swipe, because I have temporarily removed the discomfort and the self doubt and the self laceration and abnegation that I've inflicted upon myself by stopping doing what I have decided is too far out of my reach. Right, So, if I'm again going back to the same the world of the novelist, if I'm seventy five or one hundred pages into a novel that I've been telling myself for five years, I'm going to write, and I'm struggling, and I'm struggling, and I'm struggling and I'm feeling like a fraud. I'm feeling that strong sense of imposter syndrome.

44:34 If I say I'm done, forget it, I'm not going to be a novelist. I give up. I make myself happier. Temporarily, I have removed myself from that space where I'm uncomfortable and filled the self doubt or even self loathing. The problem is it's a transient state. Where the meaning part comes in is later on, what does that mean for my identity? It means I quit again. The implications for who I am and what I stand for and what what I'm capable of are not great because I you know again, we're back to the art word. Regret catches up with us.

45:17 Eventually when we persist in something that we care about, our happiness temporarily might go downhill. I mean, I, after this call, I'm going to go to the gym and I'm going to curse a blue street by the time i'm done, because I'm in my tail on a hard ware because I'm going to be sixty years old in January, and I'm working really hard to make sure i'm a fit, healthy, healthy sixty year old. And that is miserable in the short term because I'm on the floor in a puddle of sweat, gasping for air, wanting to due. But when I walk home, because I walk on my gym and I walk back. When I walk home, I feel like a million bucks. And when I get, I get.

45:57 I always get in the shower and I pump my fin because it would have been so easy for me to walk away and make myself happier for that long one and that was really too hard. I didn't have to do that. But in the long term I feel better because I don't regret quitting. I stuck. I stuck with it. I have a stronger sense of my ability to persist and to do what's important and to and that you know that that comes back to meaning, because that that informs my identity. That's about who I am. I am I become a person who can persist through that discomfort and get and get things done that are meaningful to me, in this case my health and fitness. I've become someone who can persist and get through all the books that I have to write and so on. And that you know that that meaning, meaning lasts meaning an identity are persistent and they last a lifetime. Happiness doesn't, right, And I like the distinction that you talk about happiness being in the present. It's temporal, but meaningful life is really in the incorporation of the past, the present, in the future, and it incorporates the harder stuff that we get through as well as the stuff that's pleasant. And I think that's really important to emphasize. And it comes and it comes back to your to your story. Yeah. Surprisingly, I'm a believer in story. And there's a reason that our best stories about ourselves, travel stories things like that are always the stories where something goes wrong.

47:25 You know what's see, there's an old there's an old joke that says alcohol because no one ever said and then I went home that's part of story. Or no they said, no good story ever ended with and then I went home, right right, that's right. None we're listening to anyway. Stories are always where something went terribly awry, everything went to hell, and we had to find a way to persist, to keep going, to clean up the mess and come out at the end, going got through that one. You know, the travel stories of being stuck in the airport for seventy two hours of whatever it is. I've had my own stories. We all have.

48:08 But there's a reason that we tell those stories. We don't tell the easy stories. That's the right. Easy stories are boring. But also those those stories don't don't reveal anything about us to us or to others. It's the stories. It's that sense of story that says I got through this, I survived, I found a way, and that that define Those things define us, They define our identity and they they're what shape the meaning that the meaning we bring to our lives. Well, and that's what I think the promise of your book is, Tim. You know that you really have given us a way of first understanding why we trip ourselves up and what can we do to intervene in that process? And you talk about this and I think this is an incredible way to finish a book that you could really change the trajectory of an individual life and that of society. That's big, Tim.

49:00 Yeah, you're really well. If if you think about how many projects go unfinished, how many goals you want, it's it has to be staggering, all right. Multiply that by just you know a family or you know a community or whatever. But yeah, I just take the problems we have with healthcare in the United States. You know, if you if you took twenty percent of people fitner and healthier. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Sorry, Tim, we've totally run out of time. Oh my gosh, No no, don't don't apologize. This has been great, but we got it. We got to conclude here so we can get on with with with the next show here and let our listeners know how to find you. So, Tim, I'm so happy that I found you. I came knocking on your door. I believe it was no no, somebody sent me your book. You're peride person did, But then I followed up because I wanted to have you thank you for being on working on purpose. It has been amazing to have you. Thank you. It has been an amazing experience being here. Listeners and viewers, you are going to want to follow up with this man, Tim van de Hay and Tracy Maillett. Probably the best place to start to find them would be Tim van de Hay. That's Tim's personal site. It's Tim and then Vanda Hay is v A N D e h e y, So Tim Vandahey dot com. You can also find them at swipethebook dot com.

50:09 If you missed the show last week, you'd always catch a via recorded podcast. We were on air with Facial Hope talking about one of his books called Everything Connects, Cultivating mindfulness, creativity, and innovation for long term Value. Next week, we'll be on the air with Jeff Wetsler talking about his new book Ask Tap into the hidden wisdom of people around you for unexpected breakthroughs in leadership and life. See you there, and remember that work is one of the best adventures and means of realizing their potential and making the impact. We crave. So let's work on Purpose. We hope you've enjoyed this week's program. Be sure to tune into Working on Purpose featuring your host, doctor Elise Cortes, each week on W four C. Why. Together, We'll create a world where business operates conscientiously, leadership inspires and passion performance, and employees are fulfilled in work that provides the meaning and purpose they crave. See you there, Let's work on Purpose. M HM.