Oct. 28, 2025

Why Work Isn’t Working: The 6 Overlooked Motivations Leaders Must See

Why Work Isn’t Working: The 6 Overlooked Motivations Leaders Must See
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Why do so many employees feel drained, unseen, or stuck at work? Often, it’s because leaders unknowingly still architect work as if everyone is driven by the same rewards. The truth? People come six distinct motivations, rooted in personal history, values, and nature itself. When organizations cater to only one, disengagement and frustration flourish. Join us as we explore James Root’s research and reveal how enlightened leaders can finally design work that inspires everyone to thrive.

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The topics and opinions express in the following show are

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solely those of the hosts and their guests and not

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What's working on Purpose? Anyway? Each week we ponder the

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answer to this question. People ache for meaning and purpose

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at work, to contribute their talents passionately and know their

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lives really matter. They crave being part of an organization

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that inspires them and helps them grow into realizing their

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highest potential. Business can be such a force for good

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in the world, elevating humanity. In our program, we provide

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guidance and inspiration to help usher in this world we

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all want working on Purpose. Now, here's your host, doctor

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Elise Cortez.

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Welcome back to the Working and Purpose Program, which has

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been brought to you with passionate pride since February of

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twenty fifteen. Thanks for tuning it again this week. Great

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to have you. I'm your host, doctor Real Lease Cortes.

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If we've not met before and you don't know me,

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I'm a workforce advisor, organizational psychologist, management consultant, logo therapist,

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speaker and author. My team and I at gusto Now

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help companies to enliven and fortify their operations by building

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a dynamic, high performance culture, inspirational leadership and nursery managers

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activated by meaning and purpose. You can learn more about

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us at gustodashnow dot com or my personal site at

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last Coortes dot com. With us today is James Rutt.

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He's a senior partner of bin In Company and chair

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of Bane Futures. He's also the author of The Architect

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Archetype Effect, which is what we're talking about today, and

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that book is about offering readers a new way to

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understand what motivates them at work every day and why

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they feel how they feel about their job. He joins

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us a DIF from London, where he's currently on site

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doing some work his home in Hong Kong. A hearty

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welcome James to working on Purpose.

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Great to be here. Thank you, elease, so welcome.

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So glad I found you, and I stumbled across your

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book and then I went up to my trusted friend

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LinkedIn and reached out to you and said, Hey, come

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play with me on my podcast. Let's talk about this

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magnificent work. So let's first command and celebrate this beautiful

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thing you put into the world. James. It's really gorgeous.

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I loved reading every single last page of it.

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I'm so pleased, thank you, You're.

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So welcome, so welcome and considering. I also am a

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meeting and work researcher and identity researcher and found fifteen

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modes of engagement that I found when you looked at

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the level of meaning that people ascribe to their work

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and how that works relates to their sense of self,

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I found fifteen. So your work is really interesting and

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sort of helps align and further illuminate what I did.

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So exciting. But you and I are kind of geeky

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and weird in this way. So why did you why?

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What's your fascination with motivations of work? Where'd that come from?

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I mean, it comes directly from my day job, if

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I can call it that. Okay, as an advisor to corporations, public, private,

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family founder led business says, trying to help them improve

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their performance, which is what we do than is what

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I've been doing for thirty five years. There was definitely

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something changing in the way that the individuals at those

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firms related to their jobs, and there was something also

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changing in the needs that the firms or the organizations

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had from those people. With the advent of more and

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more waves of automation and technology and efficiency programs, something

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was changing on both sides of the leisure So that

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got me very very provoked on this topic.

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Thank you love it well. And then, of course, as

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you were going through and we'll talk later in one

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of other segments about just how it was that you

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did this research, because that's pretty interesting too and really

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what you were considering when when you looked at the

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components of it. But you did make a delightful discovery

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in that you've discovered pretty quickly that not everybody is

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motivated to work for the same reason. No surprise there, I.

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Think, no surprise, but an oddly sort of veiled secret,

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and at least in the way that the conventional talent

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management systems that are you know, the hrms that are

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embedded in so many firms, whether from the giants, the

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SAPs or Matters or the people's source what have, or

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even from a smaller class assume. So the assumption that

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underpins those systems I think are old. They're outdated. They

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are fifty plus years old, and go back to a

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time when you could meaningfully talk about an average worker

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and design a talent system around an average worker. And

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if I could sort of summarize what I mean by that,

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it is an assumption that whether your labor, whether your management,

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whether you're labor trying to become management, sometimes you are

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in your job just trying to climb the pole, just

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trying to take the next step up the ladder to

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you know, more layers between you and everybody else and

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wider spans and more responsibilities. And you know, that was

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kind of the model that informed organization design, reward structures,

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performance management, career pathing for decades and decades and decades,

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and it worked really well. Let's not pretend it was

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a failure. It wasn't. It was really really good and

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successful because we just didn't assume that individual motivations mattered

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at all. And I think that you can no longer

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get away with that. So both on the organization side,

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where now you know, that concept of the professional manager

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trudging is or her way up the ladder is is

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still real, but it's no longer necessarily the main event.

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In many firms, individual contributors are important. Coaches, advisor, expert

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roles have become more and more important, do more and

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more work, particularly supported by technology. And then on the

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human side. You know, while we said to people, who

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do you want to be? You know, we like to

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empower you to be who you want to be at work,

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a fantastic thing to do. Turns out, ironically they turned

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around as well, I don't want to be that person

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who's just climbing the ladder. Some do, and that's great

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problem for them, but lots do not. They prefer a

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different model, and yet our systems are still predicated on

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that old set of beliefs.

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To that in, James, I really like what you say,

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and but there's so many quotable pieces of your book,

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But I like how you call for the need to

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de average the employee and build good jobs and career

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paths that meet the needs of this diverse workforce. To

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your point, and what I find so exciting about your

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work and part of the reason I wanted to have

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you on is it's one thing to illuminate these this

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opportunity and this problem. It's another to be able to

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start help organizations to move toward a solution, and I

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think your work really does that. So this idea of

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de averaging the worker is pretty interesting.

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Yes, And trust me, I'm there's no false modesty and

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what I'm about to say because you're a real psychologist,

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I'm a business advisor and a strategist to understood that

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without people are still the most valuable resource AI, cloud, mobile,

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PC revolution and Internet notwithstanding, people are still the most

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valuable resource that we have, and they are motivated differently.

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I think we can prove that if it wasn't already obvious,

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I can now approve them with this data, and yet

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we treat them all the same. So yes, this idea

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of doing something that we routinely do for our customers.

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I mean it is absolutely standard behavior for decades to

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say ment customers, to say, what is our least one

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is that the same as what James wants? Well, maybe

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I can give us something different within my category, and

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yet we don't do that for our workers, even though

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they're literally the same people, different times of day, different

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days of the week, is literally the same people. So

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we have all these highly sophisticated product companies selling our

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services selling this products or increasingly technology firms selling our

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profile and advertisers. Brother, why not they can? We can

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always opt out if we want to. Most of us don't.

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And yet those firms selling a products, selling our profiles,

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they know a lot more about one way to basis

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than the films we actually go to work for every day.

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Something's really about that.

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Wow, that's profound, James, that's really profound. Thanks for sharing that.

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I didn't I don't think I had that perspective at all,

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even reading your book, I don't think I grab that perspective.

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So now we need to talk about something really important, James.

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But you and I opened our conversation around because at

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first you had some reticence about coming on my on

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my podcast, right because you were concerned that we would

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only be talking about meaning and purpose and that there

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would be an assumption that everyone wants it. And you've

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of course discovered that not everyone does want meaning in

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purpose in their work.

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Yes, and I really appreciate the way you you know,

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you responded to my question on that it was extremely

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proactive and helpful. So here's here's what I think I've learned. Okay,

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and I'm wide open to returns and points of view,

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but this is what I've learned from almost fifty thousand

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people that we talked to. I wanted to distinguished first

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of all, something that is not often not distinguished in

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this dialectic, but that is between the purpose and meaning

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of the firm, a purpose of meaning for the individual.

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So firm meaning of purpose in our research is really important,

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no doubt about it. About seventy percent of the people

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we talked around the world will probably describe them later

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as a very wide rage say that the purpose of

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my firm, the meaning, the value, stem whatever I want

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to call it, that matters to me. And about half

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that number of thirty percent said it's really very important,

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particularly when I'm making career decisions. Do I leave, do

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I stay, Do I change jobs? Do I stay at

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this firm? And that's I mean, that's not everybody, but

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that's a good chunk of people. So all the work

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that you do, all the work that I've done over

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my career. All the work that clients I observe doing

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on developing a purpose statement of some sort is very valuable.

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I don't want to say anything about that except good,

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keep going important. But it is not the case in

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our research that individuals are all clamoring for their personal

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meaning and purpose at work. Some are great. I hope

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they find it fantastic. It must be just stupendously satisfying

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with them if they do to find a kind of

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almost religious experience at work that organized religion used to

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provide for many people. That's something that a fascinating book

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by Professor Carroll and Chen that Percy explores in Silicon

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Valley is sort of approximation of work to religion. But

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lots of people three of the archetypes that we're going

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to talk about later in particular, are not looking for meaning,

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a purpose, or self trelendents or self worth or identity

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our work. They're looking for it if they do outside

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of work, perhaps in their family, perhaps in faith, perhaps

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in sports, I don't know, some other arena is where

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they find that in their lives work serves different purposes.

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Doesn't mean it's not important, very important, but not that

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particular type of importance.

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You know, when I was doing my research, James was

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again around meaning your work and identity, and I wanted

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to understand experience that connection, that relationship between those two,

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and I found in the beginning this idea that the

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work was detached, their identity was detached from their work.

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And so then I found within that different modes that

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they could care less about, you know, how their what

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their work, and that was like one percent of who

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they were. The rest of their life happened outside of work.

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So there's so much that we could unpack with this,

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and I think it's so important. And one thing I

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discovered too, James, is when I would be out doing

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workshops on my first the five modes of engagement when

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you didn't consider the meaning levels, and then the fifteen

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when you did, and people would identify pretty readily which

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one was their own. They would be like, you mean

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people other people experience these other fourteen ways of working.

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You're keeping me right. It's incredibly illuminating, which I think again,

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were I want to get I want to go there.

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Next is the opportunity and promise of understanding and embracing

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these different architypes that you found to nurture and create

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cultures and rewards systems accordingly is vast right. So if

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you could sort of speak to a bit about what

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you see as that promise, that opening, I see tremendous

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promise in that.

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I mean, doesn't it always in these systems of typing

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start with self knowledge, I think, and you know, and

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I forgive anybody whose eyes are rolling at the idea,

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oh gosh, another one of these times. You know, what

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am I this week? Green donkey this week?

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Or what is it?

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But I do astually to use discretion in terms of

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driving your usage of highly data driven samples like us.

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But still I think it starts with self knowledge. If

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I can appreciate, I think about my own career and

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the time I'm a driver my name is James.

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And a driver and helper as well.

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I know, and you're a pioneer by the way, I know.

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I know, yes, But the times I've taken risks in

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my career, three or four of them I can focus

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on very well and sort of acted like a pioneer.

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Come on to these terms later, I was, I can

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now understand what was making me a little bit uncomfortable

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the whole time, just wasn't quite right, But so the

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opportunity you asked about, Yes, I think it is. Start

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with yourself. Understand why you hate your job, why you

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love your job, why those people there are difficult to

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work with, but these people here are easy to work with,

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and then it builds from there. Whether you're in a

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very senior leadership position or whether you're managing a team

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of four or five people around you, doesn't matter. Any

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kind of leadership dynamic is improved by an appreciation of

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what other people are motivated. And I write about that

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a lot in the book, obviously from some stories I've seen,

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but it's the first principles idea that if I understand

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that you are leadser a pioneer, and I'm the team

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leader as a striver, I can probably allow you to

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do things and behave in certain ways that if I

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just assumed you were like everybody else or like me,

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I would find intolerable. That's project, that's progress, and I

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think it locks into what I said a few minutes

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ago about just the way firms are valuing different kinds

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of roles. You know, if you value the professional manager

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drudging up the ladder, then you want someone who's looking

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a bit like a striver to do that. That's right,

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All sorts of other roles, individual roles, expert roles, coach roles.

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I see roles the artists. Sound will be important, the

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pioneer may be important, Given may be important. You have

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a lot more leeway to kind of consider alternates. And

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then the third thing that happens, so yourself, other people

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around you. The third thing happens is you can understand

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the predictable tensions. Yes, this is something I've studied quite

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a bit, although not nearly enough, I have to say,

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But I do talk about the ten tensions between different

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motivation archetypes that I've seen most and try to unpack

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them a little bit to help me out. Why would

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it be so annoying for you and I to work together? Well,

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you're a pioneer. You look at me. He's so focused

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on money or he's so focused on just that milestone,

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whereas I, as a pioneer, I changed that, we changed

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direction last week when we decided we were going to

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go after it right, And I look at you, she's

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so unpredictable. How much idea to stick with it and

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let me get on with my right You can see

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how that dialogue can break down a little bit and

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then repeat that through all the various nodes of interaction.

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I think, I think that's what it is. Yourself, the

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team around you, could be your boss, could be people

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who work for you, your peers, and then how to manage

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and understand those predictable tensions that arise between the archetypes.

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That is so beautiful, James. I want to comment on that,

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but let me let's let's go our first break here

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and I'll do so afterwards. I'm your host, Doctor Relies Cortes.

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We're on the air with James rut He's a senior

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partner of Being in Company and a chair of Being Futures.

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We've been talking a bit first to start about why

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is it important to understand the motivations, the different motivations

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that people have at work. After the break, we're going

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to talk about the six archetypes that he came up

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with this in his research and start teaching you how

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to work with your people more effectively together through them.

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We'll be right back.

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Doctor Elise Cortes is a management consultant specializing in meaning

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and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author, she helps companies

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visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired

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leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and

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commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite

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Elise to speak to your organization, please visit her at

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elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get your

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employees working on purpose. This is Working on Purpose with

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doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or to

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open a conversation with Elise, send an email to Elise A.

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L Se at elisecortes dot com. Now back to working

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on Purpose.

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Interesting with us and welcome back to Working on Purpose.

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I'm your host, doctor Elese Cortes. If you are just

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joining the show today, my guest is James Rutt. He's

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the author of The architect Effect, Unlocking the Six Archetypes

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at Work. So my comment I wanted to share with

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you before we went on on the break was because

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there's a reason that I'm an organizational psychologist and not

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a clinical psychologist, and that's because I believe in the

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wonder and the power and this centrality importance of work.

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It's something that we all need to do. It's a

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function of life. And yet it isn't working for so

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many people. People need to work on for different reasons,

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they need to work part time when they were caring

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for loved ones, et cetera. And most of the systems

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are not built for any kind of anything outside of

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you know, the as you say, the average person you're

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trying to go after. So I'm such a fan of

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your work and really feel like this could you've you've

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You've got a way through this book and this research.

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I think, James, to help people better understand where things

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are broken than because of your vast experience in consulting,

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help them understand how to get things back on track

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and working for them again. So that's what excites me.

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More good jobs, I think is a good summary of that.

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I'm not worry. I became worried in the course of

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the last five years or so thinking about this just

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not in not good jobs anymore. I wired that we

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peaked twenty years ago. But so this, this is part of,

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you know, a small contribution to many people's work on

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that theme that you're you're also focused on.

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Indeed, we need more people chugging down this this this

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path with us. Okay, so before we get into the

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six archetypes. I do want to just briefly discuss you know,

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I know that there were ten dimensions of motivations at

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work and your study considered. We don't need to talk

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about all of them, per safe, you don't want to,

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but I wanted to help our listeners and viewers get

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a better understanding of just the breadth and depth of

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what you're really scrutinized here. So can you share a

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few of those dimensions?

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Yes, yes, And the context is, you know, we, as

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I said, we are not We are not trained psychologists

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by any means. We're business people, business advisors. But we

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were able, as you would imagine, to go very very

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deep on all the existing systems out there, from MBTI

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to Big five, which the ones that a lot of

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people do know, even not psychologists, and then things that

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are a bit more specialists inside the world of work

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like Shines, Anchors and Hogan and the multitude of tests

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out there. So we were able to look at all

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of them, what do they look at, cherry pick a

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little bit and then use our own intuition. So we

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focus on ten. I mean, just the headlines would be

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a very important one is how you know how work

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centric are you?

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Yes, that's what's one of mine too.

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How much of your ID you know yourself comes from work?

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Another very important one would be sort of risk tolerance.

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Am I at work? Am I'm willing to take big

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risks even if I could be worse off? Well? Am

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I really not? But I just prefer just to keep

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my head, keep my head down and do a good

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job and get home to you know, pick up running

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FM football five o'clock. But that's the most important thing

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to me. I think autonomy is another very important one

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that we explored at least how much do I want

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to be in control of what I'm doing versus sort

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of part of a system that has very clear cut

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colds in the wheel. I think mastery is one that

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doesn't come up very much, and the other systems of

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revalued highly. So how much satisfaction motivation do I get

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from just being a master of what I'm doing versus

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you know, eighty percent are okay and I'm mucky in

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with the rest of the team. And then what we

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were just talking about self transcendence? Does work? Deliver self

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transcendence to me? Or is it just not where I

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leave where I see that kind of aspect of satisfaction

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in my life. So those are I think five and

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the ten. We don't need to go to the other ones.

402
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But it's a pretty comprehensive list. We made it as

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short as we could. You're still very hard to get

404
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less than ten in our experience. Thank you.

405
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I just think it's helpful for people to understand just this.

406
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This is the kinds of things that you looked at

407
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in your study, so robust. So I know you do

408
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this beautifully in the book. You have the six archetypes,

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but then you really also break them down. There's a

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brillion a group of three, each of them having two

411
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in that galization. Yeah, so maybe if you want to

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start with just simply giving us that framework over the

413
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three by two framework, and then I want to talk

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about each of the archetypes as well.

415
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Okay, So the three kind of platforms I suppose are

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relationships at work number one, and that covers two archetypes.

417
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Learning at work covers two, and then achievement at work

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covers too. So I can I can go straight on

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if you want, or you can directly as you see

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as you.

421
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Well, then do you want to go ahead and talk

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about the two that comprise the relationships.

423
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First, yeah, okay, there's there's a there's a profile that

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we call the giver that is quite prevalent. It's about

425
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seventeen percent of the workforce. That doesn't mean it's seventy

426
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percent of the workforce in your firm or in my firm,

427
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but just on average across the world. The giver is

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a profile that wants others to thrive. It's not that

429
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they don't care about themselves. They do. They want to learn,

430
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they want to grow. Of the six, by the way,

431
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they're the least motivated by money. However, a good compensation.

432
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Their mojo is I want to create teams or environment

433
00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:03.480
sort of situations where other people are thriving, and that's

434
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what gets who you are. That's that's the kind of

435
00:22:05.920 --> 00:22:08.640
relationships at work are very important to them. The other

436
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relationship driven archetype is the operator. Remember the largest cohort

437
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of all almost a quarter of the working force around

438
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the world. They they find meaning and things related to

439
00:22:24.319 --> 00:22:28.720
meaning in life outside of work. That's they just you know,

440
00:22:28.759 --> 00:22:31.079
there's there's a quote, the quote from this wonderful woman

441
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we did an interview with called Beverly, who's an HR

442
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manager and a telecoms company down south in the USA. Honestly,

443
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she said, my job is just a job maps to me,

444
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happens outside of work, and she was very successful woman

445
00:22:47.359 --> 00:22:50.160
forty three years old, like you know, rising up just

446
00:22:50.200 --> 00:22:53.039
but just that wasn't what it was about for her.

447
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So they they love friendships at work. Often the backbone

448
00:22:57.480 --> 00:23:00.519
people and the teams. They want to do good job,

449
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but they want to keep the head down there not

450
00:23:03.039 --> 00:23:05.720
risk takers, and they want to get out in order

451
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to do the thing that really really makes a difference

452
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to their lives. So that's the.

453
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Operator, right, Okay, So two comments to that, James. First,

454
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I will tell you that that one maps directly over

455
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to one of my fifteen modes of engagement, which I

456
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call instrumental marketable skill. I have a skill that I

457
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can trade in the economy. I'm good at this thing.

458
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I like it as well, but it's it's an instrumental

459
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marketable skill for me. That's how it maps over for mine.

460
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And then the other thing is that I need to

461
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give you a thank you because as I was reading

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this book preparation for this conversation, of course, I shared

463
00:23:37.039 --> 00:23:39.160
it with my twenty two year old daughter who is

464
00:23:39.160 --> 00:23:41.000
trying to figure out where she's going to go in

465
00:23:41.039 --> 00:23:43.599
her life. And I said, which of these of these

466
00:23:43.640 --> 00:23:47.200
types do you think you are? And she quickly identified

467
00:23:47.200 --> 00:23:49.759
that she's an operator. Well that helps so much, and

468
00:23:49.839 --> 00:23:51.599
how she's going to figure out what kind of job

469
00:23:51.680 --> 00:23:54.920
she wants to get And now her dad is definitely

470
00:23:54.960 --> 00:23:57.160
a striver and I'm a pioneer. Poor kid, you know,

471
00:23:57.240 --> 00:23:59.440
she's like, you know, in the middle of all of this,

472
00:24:01.000 --> 00:24:04.519
it's going to be exactly exactly. But I want to

473
00:24:04.519 --> 00:24:06.720
say thank you because it helped give her more clarity

474
00:24:06.720 --> 00:24:08.599
about Yeah, I don't want that kind of stuff in

475
00:24:08.640 --> 00:24:10.599
my work. I don't want that. I don't want to

476
00:24:10.599 --> 00:24:12.359
be a pioneer at all, and I don't want to

477
00:24:12.359 --> 00:24:14.880
be a striver. So thank you for that, James, just

478
00:24:14.920 --> 00:24:16.359
to me already.

479
00:24:16.559 --> 00:24:17.799
I don't want to use up a lot of your

480
00:24:17.880 --> 00:24:19.440
valuable time on this. But I have a twenty two

481
00:24:19.480 --> 00:24:23.480
year old son who has also identified as an orator,

482
00:24:23.920 --> 00:24:26.160
and his dad is a driver and am and something,

483
00:24:26.319 --> 00:24:28.279
so I get it. He's trying to find his way

484
00:24:28.319 --> 00:24:30.160
in the world of work as well. It's complicated that

485
00:24:30.240 --> 00:24:33.599
these things can help absolutely had I wish I'd had

486
00:24:33.640 --> 00:24:35.480
some kind of pramide like this myself when I was.

487
00:24:35.400 --> 00:24:38.000
Talking to me too, me too, my life would have

488
00:24:38.000 --> 00:24:41.799
made so much more sense earlier anyway. Okay, so let's

489
00:24:41.799 --> 00:24:44.960
go to the learning motivation, and the two types for

490
00:24:45.039 --> 00:24:47.599
the learning motivation are so the one.

491
00:24:47.480 --> 00:24:50.759
The first one we call him explorer and then clus

492
00:24:50.799 --> 00:24:53.559
in the name. They really value freedom and experience. They

493
00:24:53.599 --> 00:24:56.559
tend to live in the present, seek that careers that

494
00:24:56.599 --> 00:25:00.680
provide lots and lots of variety and excitement. They place

495
00:25:00.960 --> 00:25:04.279
a higher than average importance on autonomy because they want

496
00:25:04.279 --> 00:25:06.000
to have the chance to say I don't want to

497
00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:09.759
do this anymore, I want to try this. Interestingly enough,

498
00:25:09.799 --> 00:25:11.839
they take a very pragmatic approach to their own sort

499
00:25:11.839 --> 00:25:15.200
of skill development. They don't the strive of massively over

500
00:25:15.240 --> 00:25:18.400
skills for everything, but they just explorer the skills up

501
00:25:18.440 --> 00:25:19.880
as much as they think they're going to need to

502
00:25:19.880 --> 00:25:22.559
do fine in this job, knowing somewhere that they're probably

503
00:25:22.599 --> 00:25:24.240
going to be having a different job in a few years. Times.

504
00:25:24.279 --> 00:25:27.599
So they explore multiple careers in their multiple careers in

505
00:25:27.640 --> 00:25:32.000
their life, and I think enthusa in a trade off money,

506
00:25:32.039 --> 00:25:34.359
trade off, status, trade off title for the chance to

507
00:25:34.400 --> 00:25:37.279
continue to have that freedom. So let's the explorer the

508
00:25:37.319 --> 00:25:38.000
other one.

509
00:25:37.920 --> 00:25:40.519
And hewn sorry, James Hewett, what percentage or so are they?

510
00:25:40.759 --> 00:25:46.559
Oh? Sorry, yes, the explores eleven? Okay, right. The artisan

511
00:25:46.759 --> 00:25:48.599
is the other one linked to this idea of learning,

512
00:25:48.599 --> 00:25:52.240
but it's a completely different angle on it. They seek

513
00:25:52.279 --> 00:25:56.119
out work that fascinates and inspires them. We're motivated by

514
00:25:56.119 --> 00:25:57.880
the pursuit what I was talking about earlier, the pursuit

515
00:25:57.880 --> 00:26:02.200
of mastery. Always wanting to affect their expertise and their skills.

516
00:26:02.519 --> 00:26:04.599
I always think sushi chefs when I think of I

517
00:26:04.599 --> 00:26:07.000
can't get them out of my head. Now every day, Yeah,

518
00:26:07.079 --> 00:26:09.160
do the same thing every day and just try to

519
00:26:09.160 --> 00:26:11.720
get it absolutely perfect. It never will be when I

520
00:26:11.880 --> 00:26:15.680
to keep trying and don't bug them with you know,

521
00:26:15.799 --> 00:26:17.839
don't send them a form from HR saying please feel

522
00:26:17.880 --> 00:26:19.599
this in by life chat to worry. They don't want

523
00:26:19.640 --> 00:26:23.920
to do that stuff. Leave them alone to get on.

524
00:26:23.960 --> 00:26:26.759
They want to produce work that's very valuable to their team.

525
00:26:26.799 --> 00:26:28.559
They want they're up to be used. It's not some

526
00:26:28.599 --> 00:26:33.000
sort of theoretical, purely academic exercise. But they don't want

527
00:26:33.039 --> 00:26:35.920
to be you know, but they don't want to be

528
00:26:36.039 --> 00:26:39.799
you know, have their time taking, by the camaraderie or

529
00:26:39.839 --> 00:26:41.359
all the other things that go on to make up

530
00:26:41.359 --> 00:26:44.319
of firm. So that's the other And what percentage are

531
00:26:44.359 --> 00:26:47.359
they They are seventeen percent like the giveners.

532
00:26:48.359 --> 00:26:50.160
Okay, all right, all right, Now that means that we're

533
00:26:50.160 --> 00:26:53.039
now bugging down to the achievement motivation types.

534
00:26:53.559 --> 00:26:57.119
Yes, so the striver is the first one. This is

535
00:26:57.160 --> 00:26:59.720
a person has a strong desire to make something themselves

536
00:27:00.039 --> 00:27:04.079
at work professionally. They like professional success, They like the milestones,

537
00:27:04.160 --> 00:27:07.839
They like the recognition it comes with achieving a milestone,

538
00:27:08.279 --> 00:27:11.440
whether that's money or promotion or title or just the recognition.

539
00:27:11.640 --> 00:27:13.079
So you did a good job. We gave you a

540
00:27:13.160 --> 00:27:14.880
task and you achieved it. Thank you very much. So

541
00:27:15.400 --> 00:27:18.119
they get a lot done. Not big risk takers professionally,

542
00:27:20.240 --> 00:27:22.240
and you know, at their worst that can be quite

543
00:27:22.279 --> 00:27:26.680
transactional and it seem quite competitive. But certainly people that

544
00:27:27.079 --> 00:27:29.799
twenty one percent of the workforce, and you know, they

545
00:27:29.799 --> 00:27:33.119
get a lot of stuff done. In many organizations. The pioneer,

546
00:27:34.440 --> 00:27:37.400
which is the last and the smallest cohort only ten

547
00:27:37.400 --> 00:27:41.119
percent of the working population, is also motivated by achievement,

548
00:27:41.759 --> 00:27:44.160
but their definition of achievement is completely different. It is

549
00:27:44.240 --> 00:27:47.279
I want to change the world in some way. You

550
00:27:47.359 --> 00:27:49.960
are a good example of that. So what they do

551
00:27:50.160 --> 00:27:53.440
is they develop a very strong vision about the way

552
00:27:53.440 --> 00:27:55.680
they think things should be at their firm and their work,

553
00:27:55.880 --> 00:27:57.759
and they try and bend the will of everybody else

554
00:27:57.759 --> 00:28:03.519
around that charged okay, and you they wanted to come

555
00:28:03.559 --> 00:28:05.599
with them, but even if you're not coming with them,

556
00:28:05.599 --> 00:28:08.480
they're going anyway. And there's a little bit of the

557
00:28:08.599 --> 00:28:13.200
kind of move fast, break things aspect to them. Super

558
00:28:13.359 --> 00:28:18.039
risk tolerant, I would almost say, risk seeking, and they

559
00:28:18.200 --> 00:28:20.440
just they wanted them very much aligned to this vision

560
00:28:20.480 --> 00:28:22.240
that they have, which were just them selfish. It's often

561
00:28:22.319 --> 00:28:24.559
very altruistic. And when I say change the world, I

562
00:28:24.559 --> 00:28:26.400
don't literally mean that. I mean it could be a

563
00:28:26.480 --> 00:28:29.480
kind of musky and you know, let's become a multiplanetary

564
00:28:29.480 --> 00:28:32.319
species type of thing. But an example I often use.

565
00:28:32.400 --> 00:28:34.920
I have a friend who's a financial controller at a

566
00:28:35.200 --> 00:28:38.279
medium sized firm. She's a pioneer. Her definition of change

567
00:28:38.279 --> 00:28:39.680
the world is I want to change the way we

568
00:28:39.720 --> 00:28:43.480
do the month. Then close, great, I get that's a

569
00:28:43.519 --> 00:28:47.200
big change in many firms of small size, so great,

570
00:28:47.279 --> 00:28:49.680
that is exactly what a pioneer would say. About their

571
00:28:49.680 --> 00:28:52.200
desire to do that. So that's that's the Pioneer and

572
00:28:52.240 --> 00:28:55.200
those are those are the six architects operate to twenty

573
00:28:55.240 --> 00:28:59.000
four percent, strivers twenty one, artisans and givers both seventeen

574
00:28:59.359 --> 00:29:01.480
explore it in a Pioneer only ten percent.

575
00:29:02.519 --> 00:29:04.640
Yes, I do feel only yes, thank you for that.

576
00:29:06.720 --> 00:29:09.160
So just briefly, when I did my research, I was

577
00:29:09.200 --> 00:29:12.200
looking to really understand the experience people were having in

578
00:29:12.240 --> 00:29:14.279
their work. How did they experience their work, how did

579
00:29:14.279 --> 00:29:16.519
the experience meaning, and what do they mean they're mean

580
00:29:16.599 --> 00:29:18.920
to their sense of self. So I also coded for

581
00:29:19.000 --> 00:29:23.119
positive and negative experiences. So I have I think three

582
00:29:23.160 --> 00:29:25.480
modes that are in the negative realm, and one of

583
00:29:25.480 --> 00:29:29.160
those is an existential crisis. This is the most just

584
00:29:29.480 --> 00:29:32.640
horrible place to be. And so that's that's part of

585
00:29:32.680 --> 00:29:34.960
the reason I had came up with because I had

586
00:29:34.960 --> 00:29:38.720
to value valance in negative and positive experience, I ended

587
00:29:38.799 --> 00:29:41.640
up with fifteen modes versus like more like you're more

588
00:29:41.680 --> 00:29:44.640
accessible six archetypes. So it's kind of interesting.

589
00:29:45.279 --> 00:29:47.480
Yes, we I'll go by the way at least was

590
00:29:47.519 --> 00:29:49.559
to be as have as few as possible.

591
00:29:49.720 --> 00:29:50.920
Yeah, it's brilliant.

592
00:29:51.319 --> 00:29:53.599
Things I gave me Ti just way too many. Now

593
00:29:54.000 --> 00:29:56.319
having said that it was six, it was not five,

594
00:29:56.359 --> 00:29:58.599
and it was not seven. I mean, with this analytically

595
00:29:58.680 --> 00:30:00.480
driven to get to six, we couldn't get only less

596
00:30:00.519 --> 00:30:03.119
than that onek. Yeah, at SICK we could see clear

597
00:30:03.279 --> 00:30:06.319
bright lines between the boxes. Of course courses over that.

598
00:30:06.640 --> 00:30:10.799
Sure, sure, sure, but I can clearly discern that which

599
00:30:11.000 --> 00:30:13.200
which ones. I'm not right, I can clearly concern that,

600
00:30:13.519 --> 00:30:15.759
discern that, and so I think can our listeners and viewers.

601
00:30:16.359 --> 00:30:18.720
I think it's really important to point out that you

602
00:30:18.759 --> 00:30:21.599
say in every country, because this is a multi country

603
00:30:21.680 --> 00:30:23.240
study that you did, It's not that you've did this

604
00:30:23.319 --> 00:30:25.519
in the US or in Hong Kong or London or

605
00:30:25.519 --> 00:30:29.079
whatever are the UK, and you show that the operators

606
00:30:29.119 --> 00:30:34.039
and strivers are the two largest archetypes combined and they

607
00:30:34.160 --> 00:30:38.079
represent forty fifty percent of the working population. That's incredible,

608
00:30:38.079 --> 00:30:39.400
that's important to understand.

609
00:30:39.680 --> 00:30:43.240
Incredible. So just quickly on the research to credentialize it.

610
00:30:43.319 --> 00:30:46.960
Nineteen markets in the world. Those nineteen markets represent seventy

611
00:30:46.960 --> 00:30:51.599
five percent of global GDP, so you know, developing markets

612
00:30:51.599 --> 00:30:55.279
with younger workforces, mature markets with Asian workforces, and everything

613
00:30:55.279 --> 00:30:57.920
in between. So I feel I feel pretty solid in

614
00:30:57.960 --> 00:30:59.880
the quality is about fifty thousand people have done the

615
00:31:00.079 --> 00:31:02.920
all research and about another one hundred and fifty thousand

616
00:31:02.920 --> 00:31:04.759
people have taken the kind of the quick quiz because

617
00:31:04.759 --> 00:31:06.519
I think you're going to give sent a link to

618
00:31:07.000 --> 00:31:08.920
which just you know, it takes a minute and a

619
00:31:08.920 --> 00:31:11.200
half and you've got a quick read on your profile.

620
00:31:11.720 --> 00:31:14.839
So lots of lots of data to support. Because but yes,

621
00:31:14.960 --> 00:31:17.279
I mean, if there's one thing to take away from

622
00:31:17.279 --> 00:31:21.359
all this, if you're a leader of any sort, you know,

623
00:31:21.440 --> 00:31:24.640
leading a small team at work, or leading a family,

624
00:31:24.720 --> 00:31:27.559
or leading a basketball team, you better know whatever your

625
00:31:27.559 --> 00:31:30.440
own architect is, you better know how to manage operators

626
00:31:30.440 --> 00:31:33.559
and strivers, right because they are going to be roughly

627
00:31:33.599 --> 00:31:38.039
half of the people that you're that you're managing. And

628
00:31:38.079 --> 00:31:41.119
it's extraordinarily consistent from country to country, age group to

629
00:31:41.200 --> 00:31:44.119
age group, gender to gender. I mean it's it's operators.

630
00:31:44.240 --> 00:31:46.559
Drivers are anywhere from forty to as high as over

631
00:31:46.599 --> 00:31:49.920
fifty percent in Japan are these two profiles. So they're

632
00:31:50.039 --> 00:31:53.119
very very important to all firms.

633
00:31:53.160 --> 00:31:56.279
So much goodness to dig into here, let's grab our

634
00:31:56.799 --> 00:31:59.640
last break here. I'm your host, doctor Police Cortez wore

635
00:31:59.680 --> 00:32:01.519
on the air with James rut He's the author of

636
00:32:01.559 --> 00:32:05.640
the architect archetype effect Unlucky, the six Archetypes at Work.

637
00:32:05.920 --> 00:32:08.039
We've been talking a bit about the research and the

638
00:32:08.079 --> 00:32:11.319
six different archetypes that he has researched found. After the break,

639
00:32:11.359 --> 00:32:14.160
we're going to talk more about how organizations and leaders

640
00:32:14.160 --> 00:32:17.839
can use this stuff to more productively engage and retain

641
00:32:17.880 --> 00:32:21.000
their workforce, starting with this idea of where natural conflict

642
00:32:21.079 --> 00:32:22.880
comes from among them. We'll be right back.

643
00:32:38.400 --> 00:32:41.640
Doctor Elise Court says as a management consultant specializing in

644
00:32:41.680 --> 00:32:45.400
meaning and purpose, an inspirational speaker and author, she helps

645
00:32:45.400 --> 00:32:49.240
companies visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose

646
00:32:49.279 --> 00:32:53.640
inspired leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance,

647
00:32:53.680 --> 00:32:56.720
and commitment within the workforce. To learn more, or to

648
00:32:56.799 --> 00:32:59.640
invite a least to speak to your organization, please visit

649
00:32:59.680 --> 00:33:02.839
her at at elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how

650
00:33:02.839 --> 00:33:11.319
to get your employees working on purpose. This is working

651
00:33:11.359 --> 00:33:14.759
on purpose with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program

652
00:33:14.799 --> 00:33:17.559
today or to open a conversation with Elise, send an

653
00:33:17.599 --> 00:33:21.880
email to a lease a l i se at Eliscortes

654
00:33:21.920 --> 00:33:25.000
dot com. Now back to Working on Purpose.

655
00:33:29.720 --> 00:33:31.519
Thanks for staying with us, and welcome back to Working

656
00:33:31.559 --> 00:33:34.240
on Purpose. I'm your host, doctor Elise Cortez. If you

657
00:33:34.279 --> 00:33:36.319
are just joining us now, my guest is James rut

658
00:33:36.319 --> 00:33:39.079
He's the author of the archetype effect, unlocking the six

659
00:33:39.200 --> 00:33:43.000
archetypes at work. So you mentioned this earlier before, James,

660
00:33:43.119 --> 00:33:44.440
I do want to dig into a little bit more

661
00:33:44.440 --> 00:33:47.279
deeply because I think so many leaders struggle with why

662
00:33:47.279 --> 00:33:49.960
can't why people just get along? You know, why can't

663
00:33:50.000 --> 00:33:54.200
they just make things work? But your research really helps illuminate,

664
00:33:54.279 --> 00:33:57.839
and I like how you situate those those different you know,

665
00:33:58.079 --> 00:34:03.519
well anticipated conflict that comes between these different modes, But

666
00:34:03.599 --> 00:34:06.160
can you talk a bit about how natural conflict arises

667
00:34:06.200 --> 00:34:08.199
between them and maybe what can be done to sort

668
00:34:08.239 --> 00:34:08.840
of mitigate that.

669
00:34:10.440 --> 00:34:13.800
Yes, I mean maybe the quick preface is where I

670
00:34:14.000 --> 00:34:17.360
recommend people in organizations start is do the research. It's

671
00:34:17.440 --> 00:34:19.960
very simple to do. Do the research. Understand a little

672
00:34:20.000 --> 00:34:21.960
bit about what the profile mix that you have is,

673
00:34:22.880 --> 00:34:24.679
because it won't be the same as the firm in

674
00:34:24.719 --> 00:34:26.639
the office next door. It'll be unique to you to

675
00:34:26.639 --> 00:34:28.800
some extent, although of course it'll go from the apt

676
00:34:29.000 --> 00:34:32.039
depending on your industry. It allows the leaders to know

677
00:34:32.079 --> 00:34:34.400
what their archetypes are, and that's a huge topic how

678
00:34:34.440 --> 00:34:37.039
leader archetypes can differ from the teams that they lead.

679
00:34:38.360 --> 00:34:40.920
You a little bit of a view of by gender,

680
00:34:41.239 --> 00:34:45.079
by age, by ethnicity, maybe by country if you're in

681
00:34:45.079 --> 00:34:48.679
a multi country firm, or by job type. What did

682
00:34:48.760 --> 00:34:52.199
you've got going on? Because I will get to your

683
00:34:52.280 --> 00:34:54.119
question book. One of the friends that I have found

684
00:34:54.199 --> 00:34:59.360
I've come to believe is that most firms unconsciously have

685
00:34:59.519 --> 00:35:03.840
built there talent systems around one archetype. They didn't know

686
00:35:03.840 --> 00:35:05.360
they were doing that, but that's what they did. It

687
00:35:05.360 --> 00:35:08.639
could be to do with the founders or some seminal

688
00:35:08.679 --> 00:35:11.159
event in the history, but most often I think it's

689
00:35:11.400 --> 00:35:13.880
for a firm of any age twenty thirty, forty years.

690
00:35:13.920 --> 00:35:17.400
It's just we just assumed everybody's a striber, So talent

691
00:35:17.440 --> 00:35:20.800
systems for stribers because that's easy. So back to your question.

692
00:35:22.639 --> 00:35:27.159
You the observation this is observational rather than I would

693
00:35:27.199 --> 00:35:34.360
say quantitative. And it goes like this, the my door

694
00:35:34.440 --> 00:35:39.519
bells ringing, wouldn't you know? Right in the middle this

695
00:35:39.639 --> 00:35:41.519
is something about Murphy's law. When you're in a hopel

696
00:35:41.599 --> 00:35:42.039
r that it's okay.

697
00:35:42.239 --> 00:35:44.079
It adds to the color of it, no worries.

698
00:35:44.360 --> 00:35:50.079
You come back later place that's okay before. So what

699
00:35:50.119 --> 00:35:52.639
I do is I basically try and profile everybody has

700
00:35:52.639 --> 00:35:56.039
a working style for all of these six archetypes. I

701
00:35:56.159 --> 00:35:58.000
just described them to you briefly. What I didn't get

702
00:35:58.000 --> 00:35:59.480
into is the kind of the working style. What do

703
00:35:59.519 --> 00:36:02.840
they come to with risk in terms of environment, in

704
00:36:02.880 --> 00:36:05.679
terms of degree of direction, mat of uncertainty. They like

705
00:36:05.719 --> 00:36:09.440
to do predictability for hours, you know, those kinds of things.

706
00:36:09.440 --> 00:36:11.199
And when you start to look at those, and they're

707
00:36:11.199 --> 00:36:13.440
all fully documented in the in the book and the research,

708
00:36:14.280 --> 00:36:19.119
you can actually have a predictive sense of where tensions

709
00:36:19.119 --> 00:36:22.079
are going to arise. Tensions arise at work for many reasons.

710
00:36:22.360 --> 00:36:25.079
Roles can be at aults with each other, People's sense

711
00:36:25.079 --> 00:36:28.559
of values at work can be different. People's power dynamics

712
00:36:28.559 --> 00:36:31.079
can get them into tentions. All sorts of things cause tensions.

713
00:36:31.400 --> 00:36:35.199
My belief is that archetype differences also can cause tensions

714
00:36:35.280 --> 00:36:38.000
as well as alliances. Of course, some some pairs of

715
00:36:38.480 --> 00:36:41.079
arccess work very very well together. I mentioned earlier you

716
00:36:41.119 --> 00:36:44.280
and I cartooned ust as pioneer and strubber. But you

717
00:36:44.320 --> 00:36:48.480
know you put you put an artisan together with a giver.

718
00:36:48.800 --> 00:36:52.559
The artisan is the least teamy of all the archetypes.

719
00:36:53.559 --> 00:36:55.239
Let's all, let's have a training, says no, I don't

720
00:36:55.239 --> 00:36:57.159
want to do that. Let's have let's have drinks for

721
00:36:57.199 --> 00:36:58.679
the team to get to know each other better. I

722
00:36:58.679 --> 00:37:00.880
don't want to get to know you better. It doesn't

723
00:37:00.920 --> 00:37:04.119
make me a bad worker. I'm just write my code

724
00:37:04.199 --> 00:37:07.639
or do whatever. The giver, by contrast, is the most

725
00:37:07.880 --> 00:37:10.960
team I love the team. It's all about the team.

726
00:37:11.880 --> 00:37:16.000
So you can see how those two blockheads, and the

727
00:37:16.000 --> 00:37:18.679
same for the explorer and the operator. I'm going to

728
00:37:18.679 --> 00:37:20.639
get into all the details of the of the ten,

729
00:37:20.760 --> 00:37:24.159
but it's super powerful to have a look at what

730
00:37:24.239 --> 00:37:26.360
you are and then think about the people you work

731
00:37:26.400 --> 00:37:29.719
most closely with and say that's working well, why that's

732
00:37:29.760 --> 00:37:33.159
not working as well? Why? And this I'd like to

733
00:37:33.199 --> 00:37:35.119
predict that this will help you understand that in some

734
00:37:35.280 --> 00:37:36.400
in some ways.

735
00:37:36.320 --> 00:37:39.360
No question, no question. So I like the idea that

736
00:37:39.400 --> 00:37:42.599
we start first with assessing your work your workforce. What

737
00:37:42.679 --> 00:37:44.599
are what what what have you got in terms of

738
00:37:44.679 --> 00:37:48.000
percentages of usue of the six archetypes, and by the way,

739
00:37:48.000 --> 00:37:50.239
what is that? Let's get that. Now, what is the

740
00:37:50.679 --> 00:37:52.519
assessment link? Where do they where do they go to

741
00:37:52.519 --> 00:37:53.199
get the assessment?

742
00:37:53.440 --> 00:37:55.800
Well, you can only get the miniature one. The other

743
00:37:55.840 --> 00:37:58.679
one is that we do it. Yeah, the main team

744
00:37:58.719 --> 00:38:00.440
will do it. But it's going it's not a very

745
00:38:00.480 --> 00:38:03.880
invasive process and it's noise at a very difficult process,

746
00:38:03.880 --> 00:38:06.440
but it's We've got the databases, you know, being run

747
00:38:06.440 --> 00:38:09.280
by our teams in the backups in India and they

748
00:38:09.280 --> 00:38:11.760
can do all the benchmarks of you versus everybody else,

749
00:38:11.800 --> 00:38:15.360
so that the quick quiz that you've taken at least

750
00:38:15.599 --> 00:38:17.559
can be done, you know, a minute and a half

751
00:38:17.599 --> 00:38:19.119
by everybody in our team. It's not a bad place

752
00:38:19.159 --> 00:38:22.119
to start. Nothing other than it's going to ban dot

753
00:38:22.119 --> 00:38:23.039
common finding.

754
00:38:22.719 --> 00:38:25.960
It okay, gotcha perfect? Okay. So then after we've done

755
00:38:26.000 --> 00:38:27.840
that work, then the next thing you talk about is

756
00:38:27.880 --> 00:38:31.840
it's really important that ortivations examine the culture that was

757
00:38:31.880 --> 00:38:34.440
built to reward What are we rewarding here? And I

758
00:38:34.480 --> 00:38:36.480
do that too when I'm doing the surveys and employee

759
00:38:36.480 --> 00:38:39.280
engagement services, getting under the hood of well, hang on

760
00:38:39.320 --> 00:38:42.199
a minute, what behaviors are we actually rewarding here?

761
00:38:43.960 --> 00:38:46.480
So good, Yeah, I'm not surprised that you do that

762
00:38:46.480 --> 00:38:50.079
as part of your work. It's it's so revealing about

763
00:38:50.079 --> 00:38:52.800
what's going on in the firm, even in an unwritten way,

764
00:38:52.800 --> 00:38:55.880
what the kind of operating values are. When you put

765
00:38:55.920 --> 00:38:57.639
a person up in front of the organization at the

766
00:38:57.679 --> 00:39:00.639
town hall and say, hey, we're promoting leaves this week,

767
00:39:00.639 --> 00:39:04.440
you say, okay, that's that's what's working here. So I,

768
00:39:04.519 --> 00:39:06.519
you know, I prowl around the offices of my clients

769
00:39:06.519 --> 00:39:10.079
sort of observing these moments of recognition, celebration and make

770
00:39:10.159 --> 00:39:13.840
little mentalness. I never guess people's archetype. I have to say,

771
00:39:13.880 --> 00:39:17.239
I really try to avoid that because for one simple reason,

772
00:39:17.239 --> 00:39:21.000
people can seal aspects of who they are at one

773
00:39:21.079 --> 00:39:23.880
the DEI especialists to prove it that to us even

774
00:39:23.880 --> 00:39:26.719
if we didn't already know it. So don't guess, but

775
00:39:26.920 --> 00:39:29.599
just ask people politely, if you've taken it, would you

776
00:39:29.639 --> 00:39:31.159
would you like to take this too? And we can

777
00:39:31.199 --> 00:39:33.960
have a shit chat about the differences between us. But yes,

778
00:39:34.079 --> 00:39:36.360
it's I'm not surprising to do.

779
00:39:36.320 --> 00:39:39.599
That as well. And essentially the way that we ask

780
00:39:39.639 --> 00:39:41.360
it is, you know what, what what will get you

781
00:39:41.440 --> 00:39:43.840
praise here? What will what will get it. So it's

782
00:39:44.079 --> 00:39:47.440
it's amazing what people say. You've already mentioned. You know,

783
00:39:47.679 --> 00:39:50.760
that's important that you consider too that who was your

784
00:39:50.760 --> 00:39:55.039
talent system built for, and invariably it was probably leaders

785
00:39:55.079 --> 00:39:57.239
from twenty years ago, if you if you've been around

786
00:39:57.280 --> 00:39:59.800
that long or whatever it is, and that they probably

787
00:39:59.840 --> 00:40:04.239
will be more of the striver category. Once you understand that, right,

788
00:40:04.280 --> 00:40:07.079
then you recognize, oh my gosh, we built this system

789
00:40:07.199 --> 00:40:10.599
it is for just this one archetype and no wonder

790
00:40:10.639 --> 00:40:13.719
we're alienating or losing all the other five. So I

791
00:40:13.719 --> 00:40:15.760
think that's really worth pointing out it as well, is

792
00:40:15.800 --> 00:40:19.199
that there's some examination about what's happening here. You then

793
00:40:19.280 --> 00:40:22.280
go on to say that is fascinating because you say,

794
00:40:22.440 --> 00:40:25.360
as a global services firm, you learn that the mix

795
00:40:25.400 --> 00:40:28.159
of strivers was almost two point five times the norm

796
00:40:28.719 --> 00:40:31.440
of other organizations forty eight percent compared to twenty one

797
00:40:31.440 --> 00:40:34.559
percent global average. So that's your mix, right, that's what

798
00:40:34.639 --> 00:40:37.559
your organization is about. And knowing what others are maybe

799
00:40:37.559 --> 00:40:40.159
they do really they maybe part of their value system

800
00:40:40.239 --> 00:40:42.719
or your value system literas and viewers, is you really

801
00:40:42.800 --> 00:40:45.960
value work life harmony. You want your people to have big,

802
00:40:46.000 --> 00:40:49.400
full lives which includes something outside of the four corners

803
00:40:49.440 --> 00:40:53.360
of your office. Have you built your talent reward systems

804
00:40:53.360 --> 00:40:53.599
for that?

805
00:40:54.159 --> 00:40:57.760
Yes, I mean I think that. Well, we don't talk

806
00:40:57.760 --> 00:41:00.559
too much about being but yeah, we are constantly tinkering

807
00:41:00.719 --> 00:41:02.920
or even making big changes in the way we think

808
00:41:02.960 --> 00:41:06.119
about value proposition for our people and the reward systems

809
00:41:06.119 --> 00:41:09.199
for it. But there's no doubt that we, like many

810
00:41:09.239 --> 00:41:12.199
many firms of our age, we're fifty three years old

811
00:41:12.800 --> 00:41:15.800
almost in terms of our age, absolutely in the middle

812
00:41:15.840 --> 00:41:21.000
of the bullseye. Talent systems built by strivers for strivers,

813
00:41:21.920 --> 00:41:23.719
And you know, I don't want to say there's anything

814
00:41:23.760 --> 00:41:26.360
bad about that. We are an extremely lucky firm and

815
00:41:26.400 --> 00:41:28.440
the sensor we are always winning the Glass Store, Best

816
00:41:28.440 --> 00:41:30.760
place to Work, to Work awards and these kinds of things,

817
00:41:30.800 --> 00:41:33.639
So I'm not criticizing it. I am saying, though, that

818
00:41:33.760 --> 00:41:36.599
our firm, like every firm in the world, is experiencing

819
00:41:36.639 --> 00:41:39.880
a dramatic change in the type of talents to acquire

820
00:41:40.119 --> 00:41:44.360
and retain. So everybody's at some level I'm exaggerating, but

821
00:41:44.360 --> 00:41:48.559
always becoming a technology firm. And what I have observed

822
00:41:48.679 --> 00:41:51.559
at my clients and around the world in general is

823
00:41:51.599 --> 00:41:53.599
a lot of the you know DevOps people, the data

824
00:41:53.719 --> 00:41:57.599
architects there, data scientists, product managers. They're not classic strivers

825
00:41:58.599 --> 00:42:01.440
might have far more explore it and far more pioneering them,

826
00:42:01.519 --> 00:42:03.639
far more artisan in some of them. We just want to,

827
00:42:03.920 --> 00:42:05.679
as I said before, we have to learn to write

828
00:42:05.719 --> 00:42:10.599
their code and our systems. They need to catch up

829
00:42:10.679 --> 00:42:15.360
to this diversity, because most people do not flourish in

830
00:42:15.400 --> 00:42:20.360
a striver driven system of talent management. They may suck

831
00:42:20.400 --> 00:42:22.559
it up, they may say, Okay, I get it. It's

832
00:42:22.559 --> 00:42:25.239
not perfect for me, but it's I'll put up with

833
00:42:25.280 --> 00:42:27.719
it because I like working at Google. I like whatever

834
00:42:27.719 --> 00:42:30.639
it might be. But fundamentally it's not really designed for them.

835
00:42:30.719 --> 00:42:33.639
And I'll never forget this moment. In a focus group,

836
00:42:33.679 --> 00:42:37.599
after we do the contitative research activity to focus groups

837
00:42:37.960 --> 00:42:40.719
buying archetype within the phone to get all the drivers together,

838
00:42:40.719 --> 00:42:44.639
I get the example of that. It's one woman who

839
00:42:44.679 --> 00:42:47.320
sat back at the end of the research debrief that

840
00:42:47.360 --> 00:42:52.840
I'd shared with them and said, Okay, I'm a pioneer

841
00:42:53.079 --> 00:42:56.119
living in a driver's world. I just got to get

842
00:42:56.199 --> 00:42:58.920
used to that. Yeah, And it was like, Okay, I

843
00:42:59.000 --> 00:43:00.760
get it. It's not ideal for me because I am

844
00:43:00.760 --> 00:43:02.679
a pioneer, and I'd like to be rewarded by having

845
00:43:02.719 --> 00:43:05.519
a big vision and changing everything. But I recognize that

846
00:43:05.559 --> 00:43:10.239
the system doesn't actually optimize for my satisfaction and productivity.

847
00:43:11.039 --> 00:43:14.239
But these things are very doable, and we now have

848
00:43:14.239 --> 00:43:16.000
a system here which is going to allow you to

849
00:43:16.000 --> 00:43:16.760
do it quite fast.

850
00:43:18.239 --> 00:43:20.519
I think, like you said before, just knowing, oh, this

851
00:43:20.599 --> 00:43:23.440
is what's happening here, just recognizing this is what the

852
00:43:23.440 --> 00:43:27.159
different the disconnect can come from. It's just so powerful.

853
00:43:27.840 --> 00:43:30.360
So the other thing that's important here is when since

854
00:43:30.360 --> 00:43:33.599
that many organizations probably did create their word systems for

855
00:43:33.800 --> 00:43:37.719
strivers because they were maybe created by strivers or now

856
00:43:37.760 --> 00:43:39.599
then led by strivers, and now that you have a

857
00:43:39.639 --> 00:43:42.000
major disconnect with some of the some of the other groups.

858
00:43:42.440 --> 00:43:44.920
And where I think this gets interesting, James, and you

859
00:43:45.280 --> 00:43:47.760
correct me if I'm wrong about this, I think you

860
00:43:47.880 --> 00:43:51.199
might you as a leader listening to us talk, you

861
00:43:51.280 --> 00:43:54.159
might recognize is if this is you, if this is

862
00:43:54.199 --> 00:43:57.480
your problem, if you find yourself saying things like I

863
00:43:57.519 --> 00:43:59.519
don't know why our people don't want to work. I

864
00:43:59.519 --> 00:44:01.280
don't know why they don't want to work hard? I

865
00:44:01.360 --> 00:44:01.960
did I do?

866
00:44:02.800 --> 00:44:03.000
Yeah?

867
00:44:03.320 --> 00:44:03.599
Fair?

868
00:44:04.280 --> 00:44:07.360
Yeah, absolutely fair, And it's particularly true about the poor

869
00:44:07.400 --> 00:44:10.360
benighted gen Z. Right, how many times I get this

870
00:44:10.440 --> 00:44:13.039
question what am I going to do about gen Z?

871
00:44:14.159 --> 00:44:16.199
And I just try and stop the conversation straight away

872
00:44:16.239 --> 00:44:19.079
and say that you're framing the question incorrectly. It will

873
00:44:19.119 --> 00:44:21.320
be like me saying what am I going to do

874
00:44:21.320 --> 00:44:23.719
about all women? What am I going to do about

875
00:44:23.760 --> 00:44:28.320
all Chinese people? Or LGBTQ plus works as if we

876
00:44:28.320 --> 00:44:31.239
could take a giant cohort like gen Z or women

877
00:44:31.480 --> 00:44:33.039
and just say they're all the same, so let's just

878
00:44:33.079 --> 00:44:35.800
everyone's standard solution for them. It's absurd, So let's stop

879
00:44:35.840 --> 00:44:37.440
asking the question what we can do about gen Z.

880
00:44:37.519 --> 00:44:39.199
Some gen Z you want to change the world. Some

881
00:44:39.280 --> 00:44:41.840
gen Z you want to have milestones hit them, get rewarded.

882
00:44:42.079 --> 00:44:44.639
Some want to be artisans. And do you know it's

883
00:44:44.679 --> 00:44:47.159
that's I got the data to prove that, and the

884
00:44:47.159 --> 00:44:49.800
mix of the mix of archetypes amongst gen Z is

885
00:44:49.840 --> 00:44:52.519
not that different from the mix of archetypes. And honestly,

886
00:44:52.880 --> 00:44:55.079
but you're absolutely right. I think that question comes up

887
00:44:55.119 --> 00:44:58.239
a lot the frustration it causes people in the forties, fifties,

888
00:44:58.360 --> 00:45:01.840
sixties about what's to and about people around them. This

889
00:45:02.000 --> 00:45:04.840
can again, if you haven't you're brave enough to say

890
00:45:04.880 --> 00:45:07.039
this is who I am, and then brave enough to

891
00:45:07.079 --> 00:45:09.079
ask your people around you, could you do you take

892
00:45:09.119 --> 00:45:11.119
this test and then we can have a discussion. You

893
00:45:11.159 --> 00:45:13.000
can make a lot of break through there. M H.

894
00:45:13.559 --> 00:45:15.440
And I think it's worth noting too. There's so much

895
00:45:15.480 --> 00:45:17.360
bigger color in your book here chains, but you do

896
00:45:17.480 --> 00:45:20.480
talk about that there's a there are far more operators

897
00:45:20.519 --> 00:45:23.960
than there are of course, and then then exist in

898
00:45:24.000 --> 00:45:26.880
the in the leadership camps, they're they're so strong, So

899
00:45:27.360 --> 00:45:29.679
you think about you need operators, you need them on

900
00:45:29.719 --> 00:45:32.159
your on your team, and and and if you're alienating

901
00:45:32.159 --> 00:45:34.000
them because you, as a leader, are more of a

902
00:45:34.079 --> 00:45:37.960
this striver camp, pioneer camp. Yes, pioneer camp.

903
00:45:38.039 --> 00:45:42.039
Yeah, absolutely true. This is a tremendous concern that I

904
00:45:42.840 --> 00:45:44.760
get a chance to talk about with the leadership teams

905
00:45:44.760 --> 00:45:46.920
I spend time with. You know, if I take a

906
00:45:46.960 --> 00:45:50.079
tip tip of our research where we call them executives,

907
00:45:50.280 --> 00:45:52.039
it's not quite the same as C suite. It's got

908
00:45:52.039 --> 00:45:54.920
to have a bigger group. It's only yes of the

909
00:45:55.000 --> 00:45:57.239
population that we serve it. But even there this is

910
00:45:57.400 --> 00:46:01.199
kew towards pioneers. It's quite dramatic. Yeah, more more than

911
00:46:01.239 --> 00:46:04.400
two times. The number of pioneers that exist in the

912
00:46:04.440 --> 00:46:08.800
working force population overall are in leadership executive role, so

913
00:46:08.920 --> 00:46:13.159
twenty two percent roughly in various county country. So there's one,

914
00:46:13.239 --> 00:46:16.760
there's one dramatic difference. So there's pioneers love risk, change

915
00:46:16.760 --> 00:46:20.039
the world, move fast, break things, meantime operators who they

916
00:46:20.079 --> 00:46:22.920
manage going no, no, no, we're fine. Down here, Everything's okay,

917
00:46:23.239 --> 00:46:26.639
great things. I've got my process down here. It's working

918
00:46:28.079 --> 00:46:30.039
when you go up to the c suite. And this

919
00:46:30.159 --> 00:46:33.239
is now only qualitative because I can't do the research

920
00:46:33.280 --> 00:46:34.960
on it, but just the people I spend time with

921
00:46:35.000 --> 00:46:37.679
a typical group of twelve fifty people around the leadership table,

922
00:46:38.199 --> 00:46:43.639
it is very common to have zero artisans and zero operators.

923
00:46:44.440 --> 00:46:46.960
So where is the voice of those two archetypes going

924
00:46:46.960 --> 00:46:49.400
to be heard? How is it going to be represented

925
00:46:49.480 --> 00:46:52.199
on the c suite of many many organizations. That's a

926
00:46:52.280 --> 00:46:54.480
question I don't have an answer to, but I know

927
00:46:54.519 --> 00:46:55.280
it's a question.

928
00:46:55.079 --> 00:46:59.599
With bliogris so important. I just want to briefly touch

929
00:46:59.599 --> 00:47:01.840
on this last point here, James. You talk about the

930
00:47:01.960 --> 00:47:05.119
role of optimism in organizations and how leaders can steward

931
00:47:05.119 --> 00:47:07.719
it for their organizations, and I think today especially can

932
00:47:07.760 --> 00:47:11.280
we situate optimism here? Can you briefly touch on that?

933
00:47:12.000 --> 00:47:15.119
Yes, I like you. I'm sure. I studied the Gallup

934
00:47:15.519 --> 00:47:19.159
data annually when it comes out, some colding organization that

935
00:47:19.800 --> 00:47:22.119
has become famous for asking this question about the work

936
00:47:22.119 --> 00:47:25.719
that's around the world. And it's miserable reading every year

937
00:47:25.840 --> 00:47:28.079
about how many people are disengaged and how many people

938
00:47:28.159 --> 00:47:31.440
are so unhappy and ossimistic about their work. And so

939
00:47:31.519 --> 00:47:33.320
I you know, we did a lot of research about

940
00:47:33.360 --> 00:47:35.800
stress and energy and wellness of work that's in the book.

941
00:47:35.800 --> 00:47:38.960
And there I was pouring over the data about stress

942
00:47:39.000 --> 00:47:43.320
and getting stressed about it myself. What was going on?

943
00:47:44.280 --> 00:47:47.559
And it's something popped out. We did ask a question

944
00:47:47.639 --> 00:47:49.360
of a lot of all the people in our sample

945
00:47:49.400 --> 00:47:55.159
about their optimism levels, and it was extraordinarily high, even

946
00:47:55.239 --> 00:47:57.079
for the younger the gen zs you asked in the

947
00:47:57.159 --> 00:47:59.280
question it was famed as five to ten years now,

948
00:47:59.320 --> 00:48:02.480
are you optimist the life will be better? We have

949
00:48:02.719 --> 00:48:06.880
I mean high seventies, mid eighties some countries, high nineties

950
00:48:07.360 --> 00:48:11.239
of the workforce, And yeah, I'm optimistic, and I feel

951
00:48:11.239 --> 00:48:13.800
like the unlock that we have to get to as

952
00:48:13.880 --> 00:48:18.159
leaders and managers of people is to turn that optimism

953
00:48:18.320 --> 00:48:21.840
into engagement, which is the Gallup measure, the opposite of

954
00:48:21.880 --> 00:48:26.039
disengagement and pescifism, and huge numbers of people will find

955
00:48:26.079 --> 00:48:28.360
their work experience very different if you could do now.

956
00:48:29.840 --> 00:48:32.639
Amazing. Now we've come pretty close to the end of

957
00:48:32.679 --> 00:48:33.920
the show here, and I do want to give you

958
00:48:34.000 --> 00:48:35.480
the chance to be able to leave our listeners and

959
00:48:35.559 --> 00:48:38.119
yours what you like. Very briefly, what would you like

960
00:48:38.159 --> 00:48:39.360
to leave them with today.

961
00:48:39.960 --> 00:48:43.960
Well, just that here's a language you can try to

962
00:48:44.079 --> 00:48:46.400
understand more about why you like your job or why

963
00:48:46.440 --> 00:48:48.000
you don't like your job, and which parts of it

964
00:48:48.039 --> 00:48:49.920
you like and don't like. There's a language for you

965
00:48:50.239 --> 00:48:54.000
to understand that very simply. It's not a complicated sixteen

966
00:48:54.039 --> 00:48:57.840
box riddle nobody understands anyway. That's the first thing. So

967
00:48:57.880 --> 00:48:59.840
there is a little bit of a game. I would

968
00:48:59.840 --> 00:49:02.280
never say I'm a self help expert. I'm not, but

969
00:49:02.760 --> 00:49:04.400
it turned out that this is a bit of self

970
00:49:04.400 --> 00:49:07.119
help in this book. The second thing is be I

971
00:49:07.159 --> 00:49:11.519
said this before, I said again, be brave enough to ask,

972
00:49:12.039 --> 00:49:14.360
you know, to identify your own archetype and then ask

973
00:49:14.400 --> 00:49:16.920
maybe your HR team or your colleagues, your peers, your

974
00:49:16.920 --> 00:49:19.159
people on your working team to do the to do

975
00:49:19.239 --> 00:49:22.119
the quiz, and then spend time talking to each other

976
00:49:22.159 --> 00:49:25.840
as a group. Have the courage to take your your

977
00:49:25.880 --> 00:49:28.800
story about your career through the lens of the Archetypes

978
00:49:28.880 --> 00:49:31.840
to your HR leader or your your line leader and say, look,

979
00:49:31.880 --> 00:49:34.360
this is something that's going on with me. How can

980
00:49:34.360 --> 00:49:36.760
we design the next year or two in my job

981
00:49:36.800 --> 00:49:40.079
here with this in mind. Obviously, skills are the most

982
00:49:40.119 --> 00:49:42.760
important thing. Nothing in what I'm saying. So skills are

983
00:49:42.800 --> 00:49:46.960
not absolutely fundamental, but skills plus motivations makes for a

984
00:49:46.960 --> 00:49:48.920
better career path than skills are learn That's my.

985
00:49:49.000 --> 00:49:53.039
View, James. It's still spectacular to know you, to learn

986
00:49:53.039 --> 00:49:54.960
from you, to be inspired by you. Thank you so

987
00:49:55.079 --> 00:49:57.480
much for coming on, working in purpose and sharing so

988
00:49:57.480 --> 00:49:59.320
beautiful your work. I thoroughly enjoyed it, and I know

989
00:49:59.400 --> 00:50:00.519
our listens can be did too.

990
00:50:00.679 --> 00:50:03.199
Thank you, Absolute pleasure, lovely to meet you.

991
00:50:04.199 --> 00:50:06.039
Listeners and viewers. You're gonna want to learn more about

992
00:50:06.079 --> 00:50:08.079
James Ruth the work that he does at being consulting

993
00:50:08.199 --> 00:50:11.559
in his book The Archetype Effects. So visit Bain. It's

994
00:50:11.599 --> 00:50:16.440
just www dot baine dot com. That's b eighti dot com.

995
00:50:17.079 --> 00:50:18.519
Last week. If you missed the live show, you can

996
00:50:18.559 --> 00:50:20.920
always catch it via recorded podcast. We'll see you next

997
00:50:20.960 --> 00:50:23.519
week for another nourishing and inspiring episode on Working on

998
00:50:23.559 --> 00:50:26.360
Purpose Together. Let's lean in and learn together how to

999
00:50:26.400 --> 00:50:29.360
make workplaces and work for everyone and find ways to

1000
00:50:29.400 --> 00:50:31.880
do business that betters the world. Let's work on Purpose.

1001
00:50:34.880 --> 00:50:37.559
We hope you've enjoyed this week's program. Be sure to

1002
00:50:37.559 --> 00:50:41.239
tune into Working on Purpose featuring your host, doctor Elise Cortes,

1003
00:50:41.360 --> 00:50:44.599
each week on W four C. Why Together, We'll create

1004
00:50:44.599 --> 00:50:48.719
a world where business operates conscientiously. Leadership inspires and passion

1005
00:50:48.800 --> 00:50:51.840
performance and employees are fulfilled in work that provides the

1006
00:50:51.920 --> 00:50:55.239
meaning and purpose They crave. See you there, Let's work

1007
00:50:55.320 --> 00:50:56.039
on Purpose.