Aug. 26, 2025

When Work Sucks: Calling Out the Grind and Leading the Change

When Work Sucks: Calling Out the Grind and Leading the Change
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Let’s be real: much of modern work just plain sucks. The hidden frictions—pointless tasks, constant pressure, small daily irritations—drain workers and diminish results. But leaders can change this. In this episode, we expose what’s really going wrong beneath the surface and share strategies to redesign work so people thrive, contribute more fully, and organizations truly perform. Guest: Melissa Swift

Working on Purpose is broadcast live Tuesdays at 6PM ET and Music on W4CY Radio (www.w4cy.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com). Working on Purpose is viewed on Talk 4 TV (www.talk4tv.com).

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WEBVTT

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The topics and opinions express in the following show are

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solely those of the hosts and their guests, and not

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What's working on Purpose? Anyway? Each week we ponder the

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answer to this question. People ache for meaning and purpose

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at work, to contribute their talents passionately and know their

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lives really matter. They crave being part of an organization

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that inspires them and helps them grow into realizing their

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highest potential. Business can be such a force for good

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in the world, elevating humanity. In our program, we provide

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guidance and inspiration to help usher in this world we

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all want Working on Purpose. Now, here's your host, doctor

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Elise Cortez.

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Welcome back to the Working on Purpose program, which has

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been brought to you with passion and price since February

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of twenty fifteen.

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Thanks for tuning in this week. Great to have you.

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I'm your host, doctor Elise Cortes.

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If you if we've not met before and you don't

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know me, I am a workforce advisor, organizational psychologist, management consultant,

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logo therapist, speaker and author. My team and I at

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Gusto now help companies to enliven it and fortify their

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operations by building a dynamic high performance culture, inspirational leadership,

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and nurturing managers activated by meaning and purpose. And you

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do know that inspired employees outperformed their satisfied peers by

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a factor of two point twenty five two one. In

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other words, inspiration is good for the bottom line. You

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can learn more about us and how we can work

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together at GUSTODESHNEU dot com or my personal site atliscoretes

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dot com. Getting into today's program we have with us

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Melissa Swift. She's the founder of Anthrom Insight and Innovative

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Organizational Consultancy, and her long and distinguished career has included

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leadership roles at Corner Fairy, capt Jain and I Mercer

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and Deloitte. Over the years, she has developed novel and

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market leading analytical techniques to better understand and address the

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human side of organizations.

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She is letting large scale people transformation work across industries

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ranging from life sciences to aerospace to professional services. She's

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the author of Work Here Now, Think Like a Human

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and Build a Powerhouse.

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Workplace Today will be talking about that book. She joins

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us from New York City. Melissa, are hearty, welcome to

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Working on Purpose.

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Thank you for having me. I The whole thematic behind

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this podcast really resonates, So I am just super excited

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to be having this conversation.

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Delighted, right, you and I have I think we might

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be able to occasionally finish the sentences, maybe using different vocabulary. Yes, yes,

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Well let's just start with as I was saying before

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we got on air, and you're clearly a very busy

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woman gallivanting about the planet with lots of things going on.

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You have a family, a very very big career, and

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now we're out writing books. So why did you write

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this one?

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Yeah? You know, so it's interesting. Work Here Now was

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born as a very different book. In my mind, that

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part of what I originally got interested in was just

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we do some stuff at work that I think is

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kind of kooky and strange. You know, everything from you know,

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agile rituals to hot desking. You know, we do a

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lot of things that have like a tiny flavor of

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the absurd. And so the book started off as this

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kind of you know, carnival fun house tour through the

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world of work, and then COVID hit and it suddenly

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just became so absurdly clear to me as I'm you know,

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trying to work and lead a practice at Cornberry and

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you know, teach my daughter virtual kindergartens. It kind of

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it was one of those moments where like the water

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got all pulled out of the lagoon, you could really

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see the rocks, and that's sort of where the what

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work here now became? You know, That's that's where it

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was born. Is this idea of can we really put

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language again what's wrong with work? And then like, let's

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you know, what would we do differently if we could

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name some of the problems in really clear and explicit ways.

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And that kind of became my mission.

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Mm hmm.

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Well, I really appreciate that on a number of levels,

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in part because the work that I do helping develop

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organizations and leaders of course starts with as as you're saying,

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getting clear and making it conscious, just what's going on

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here and how people are feeling, how the leader is feeling,

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how you're relating to your people in the organization. If

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you don't have one consciousness about that and l language

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to use around it, it's really hard to start to

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address it. So I really like how you have put

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words very very interesting, I would say, creative words to

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why these problems exist. So what I would like to do, Melissa,

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for this conversation, for the benefit of our listeners and

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viewers around the world who are listening, is I want

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to just take.

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And kind of jump into each one of your chapters.

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We won't get to all of them, and just situate

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a bit about what it is you're trying to put

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forward us, So what's problematic there? And then I want

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to just offer, because you offer nineties strategies in the

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book on an organizational or team level to start to

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address this stuff. So for each of these sort of issues,

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we'll talk about a couple of strategies that the listeners

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and viewers can start to use to address that. So

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as they recognize, yep, we got that problem, then we're

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going to immediately give them at least a couple of

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strategies that they can start to take back home and

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put to work.

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So let's dive on you're ready.

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I'm ready, Okay, right, chapter one.

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Let's just you know, the great work, unpack, understanding and

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fixing broken work. Yeah, it really is, right, I mean,

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And first, let me situate for you, Melissa. I am

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an organizational psychologist and do the work that I do because.

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I believe in the wonder and power of work, and.

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It's it needs to be a more fluid, workable part

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of our lives, and it just isn't for so many people,

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as you so eloquently point out. So let's talk about

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just a couple of things that are related to that

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first idea of you know, maybe if we make the

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everyday experience of work subclass, maybe we would actually get

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more done.

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What a concept.

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Funny though, because we do a lot to avoid talking

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about the everyday experience of work.

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This is one of the things that really fascinated me

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in my career, and we probably seem manifestation in your

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work with leaders, I would guess is that we will

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systematize and framework eyes and do anything to kind of

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talk around.

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What are people's working days like day to day and

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just treating kind of that everyday average experience would work

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as a data point, right, not getting weird about it

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and not getting emotional about it, and not saying it

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has to be what it has to be, because this

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is the ROI we need and this is what the

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stakeholders need, just taking a step back and saying, Okay,

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this is what people's working days are like. Are these

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all choices we would make to your point about anxiousness? Right,

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would we choose to step work up this way? And

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in general we absolutely would not, And by the way,

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the shareholders wouldn't want us to either.

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Right.

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It's not a win for individuals, it's not a win

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for the organization. It's not a win for anybody. But

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it requires that moment off you have to kind of

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almost like look right into the eyes of what people

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do all day long.

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And that's a journey, it really is. And I love

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how you just brought that down to just like, let's

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just talk about what we're actually doing here. So let's

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talk about this. So if work isn't working, it sucks

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for a lot of people. Let's talk about a couple

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of strategies that you offer in the book. Just one

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of them is is you talk about the need and

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the opportunity to regularly re examine work for signs of

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being dangerous, dull and annoying, frustrating and confusing.

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Wow, if we were to alleviate those kinds of things, man,

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we would turn the world upside down right there.

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Yeah, absolutely, and again just treating them as data. Right,

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I've seen so many leaders and again I'm sure you

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have seen this too, where people are whiny and people

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are complaining. Well, no, when they talk about being bored,

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when they talk about being frustrated, that's work going wrong, right,

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that is not helping your profitability as an organization. Actually

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trying to tell you that they're giving you helpful data

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and you're disregarding it. The same with work being dangerous.

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You know, you look at those those wonderful visualizations of

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what your brain looks like when you're on zoom calls

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back to back all day, right, you can actually see

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people's brains kind of subtly on fire. You know. You

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look at that, and you know it's like, well, people

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need to just tough it out. Well, no, that's not

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somebody at peak performance at that point. So it's like,

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just correct for those things that workers experience is problematic,

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and actually the whole operational machine runs better at that point.

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But you have to again kind of get past that

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psychological hurdle from their whining to their giving me neutral

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data and I can choose what to do with it.

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Yes, beautifully explained. Okay, another strategy that I'd like to

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offer for this just idea of working work sucking as

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it does for many people. One of your other strategies

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is don't take intensified work for granted, and don't be

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afraid to be to intensify. So first we've got to

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situate what do you mean by intensified work.

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So intensified work is one of the most interesting concepts

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from the academic world that we don't talk about enough

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in professional practice. So I went down kind of you know,

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a rabbit hole and academic studies of work, just trying

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to figure out why. You know, I'm gen X and

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I feel like work has gotten harder in my lifetime, right,

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Like I have watched something happen and it's not just that,

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like I'm old at curmudgeonly, honestly, I was a curmudgeon

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at age twenty two. Right, like theudgeon. Curmudgeon is a

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constant across my life. But something has gone gone a

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bit weird. And it turns out that academics actually study

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this notion of work intensification, and it's got three aspects

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to it. Number one is too many tasks into little time.

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Number two is excess interdependence. I love this one because

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any large complex organization, which is what all my clients

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have been like over the years, right, this business of

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I rely on this process and this process and this person.

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It wears people down. It's what you saw Jamie Diamond

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very upset about the seventeen committees. Right, He's complaining about interdependence.

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And then the third one is just excess emotion in

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the workplace. So that could be your customer service rep

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who gets yelled at, or that could just be your

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boss yelling at you. But all of those things I

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am the book that I'm working on now. I analogize

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it too. It's like carrying a bag of sponges versus

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carrying a bag of bricks. The sponges might be the

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same size as the bricks, but the bricks are so

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much denser and they weigh you down more So, That's

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why if you have an intensified work day, either too

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many tasks, too much interdependence, or too much emotion, that

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same ten hours, eight hours of work feels a lot

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heavier than it did before. Again, you know, we say, well,

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just work is work, and you got to grind, and

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oh no, if we've just convinced ourselves that we can

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do more tasks than we can actually do, that's again,

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that's just us doing it wrong. It doesn't have to

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be that way, and you can fix it, and you

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can fix it within your own working team. And I

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think that's where some of the power lies in record

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more intensification is you may not be empowered to fix

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it across your whole organization, but oftentimes you can kind

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of get some stuff done sort of local to yourself.

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I got to believe right about now, LISTA, there's a

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few people listening in there going, oh my gosh, there's hope.

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I now she's helped me understand and put words in

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language of just what's happening around her, and even just

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that simple thing of what do you mean people don't

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actually have to scream at you at work that I

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don't actually have to experience that I'm sure that people

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are listening to that, going, Wow, what a different day

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that would be.

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Yeah, well absolutely, because we just we do a lot

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of myth making. You know, we have these myths of

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like screaming, passionate boss. Right, you know, are got it done?

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You know, it's it's just a myth, right, right. You

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don't have to believe in the Easter Bunny, you don't

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have to believe in Santa Claus, and you don't have

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to believe that that style of leadership is the most

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impactful and effective. And you know, folks like you and

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I who work with a wide array of leaders often

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see leaders who are wildly different from that and incredibly effective.

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You know who can be you know, either quiet and

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introverted or very extroverted, but they don't have that sort

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of like yelling negative emotion thing going on, and it's

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unbelievable what they can accomplish.

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Oh yes, I encourage that kind of behavior, right and left. Okay,

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So your language in the book is so fun, Melissa.

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I knew you were going to be great gobs of

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fun to talk with because your language choices already are

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so fun. So part of what you talk about in

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another chapter is why don't we just get better at

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digging into the experience of work and fixing it.

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And then you talk about two monsters that are menacing

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the world to work. Let's talk about those two monsters.

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Yeah, so the first one, we've got the work anxiety monster.

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And this is the little voice in your head that says,

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either people are lazy and people are slow, or you're

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lazy and you're slow, and don't underestimate the impact of

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these anxious thoughts. I mean, my god, I wrote about

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the anxiety monster. I think about it, and I still

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hit myself with those own and I have to correct

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for them on a day to day basis. Right, So,

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there is something about those anxious thoughts that drive a

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lot of really bad decisions at team level, at workforce level.

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You know, every time you assume that people are too

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slow and too lazy, you start you manage them in

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ways that, again a ton of research shows us, are

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actually not constructive or helpful. You know, if you harken

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back to the theory X and theory why management of

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the sixties, right, this is integrally related to that either

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you believe people will do the right thing properly empowered

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or you don't. I believe people will do the right

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thing properly empowered, and I think a lot of the

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research is on my side too. But to do that,

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you got to make the anxiety monster shut up.

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Mm hmm.

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Well, and so to that end, one of your strategies

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is simply to unpack your foundational talent management assumptions and

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what decisions are you making on the basis of believing

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that people are lazier slow.

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So this is where it gets really interesting. Both of

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us works.

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I have to imagine I will go into an organization

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and start to help help organizations a mirror back the

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language they're using and so they can actually hear, Oh,

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they are telling people that they're lazy and slow or

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whatever it might be.

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Or there's a punitive relationship between the.

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Boss and the employee, the parent and the child, kind

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of thing they're not even not at all aware of.

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So I think this idea, how even the word using

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unpack is really important because it still speaks to They

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got conscious to it, and they got to understand how

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it's deriving their communication and their behavior. So I think

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that strategy is really really powerful, hard to do without

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some help, probably from a third party or somebody else.

304
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Well, because part of I mean part of the issue

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here again is you know, to your point unconscious choices

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that you know, if organizations knew, for instance, they were

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treating their employees like arrant children, many of them, not

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all of them, but many of them wouldn't do it.

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But that moment of the aha moment where somebody reflects

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back to you, this is what you're actually communicating, and

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this is what your your choices and your decisions say.

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You know that it just sort of a simple example.

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You know, if you don't complete your training hours, we're

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going to dock your pay, right right. That's a classic one.

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I've seen that a lot of places. What that implicitly

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says is I don't believe you are intrinsically motivated to learn.

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I believe you have zero intrinsic motivation to learn. Now,

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who's sat down the CEOs and most of those companies

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say do you believe your people have zero intrinsic motivation

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to learn? They'd be like no, no, no, no, I've all

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these great people. I really, you know, like they would

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express constructive, positive sentiments, But the policy doesn't say that.

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The policy communicates something else, and that's the journey that

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you know, you're taking organizations on, and a lot of

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us are like trying to be that helpful mirror to say,

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this is what you really communicated. You probably didn't mean it,

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but this is what you said.

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Yeah, And I think I see a lot of organizations

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that are using very very very outdated, archaic language like

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that that isn't suitable for today's times for what.

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People how people want to be treated.

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They want to be treated with respect, with appreciation, with

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day to day and that sounds very very punitive and dictatorial.

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And so it's that kind of language that we have

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to start to learn how to fare out of organizations

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that aligns with your strategies as well. Okay, so we

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have to talk about the other monster again, really fun

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language here, and the other monster as president organizations that

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we need to address is the boss baby customer.

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Yeah.

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So this is a fun one for me because it's

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a great example of something not so hot coming out

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of like a really good, well intentioned place. So, you know,

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some years ago, organizations kind of got hipped to this

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notion of customer centricity. Right, We're going to really think

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about our customer as a person and center a lot

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of stuff on them, and up to a certain point, probo,

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that is fantastic, and I would not argue with thinking

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that way. But what happens is there's always, as in

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many of the things, this tendency to over rotate, and

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eventually you're treating your consumer like you know, they're a baby,

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but they're also in charge of every single thing you do.

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And what happens when you establish that dynamic is you

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end up putting kind of unbearable pressure on your human workers.

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So you know, if you say, okay, we can ship

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in X amount of time and it's not actually feasible, right,

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but you're making that boss baby assumption of like, well

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they can't live without it for more than x amount

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of time. You know, a you end up with failures

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because you promise something that wasn't humanly doable. So you

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end up disappointing your customer anyway. But be what you've

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done to your employees, right, is you've created You've made

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your customer into a monster for them, and it's not again,

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it's not actually what you'd want really good customer centricity.

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You'd want your employees and your customer to actually have

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this kind of symbiotic and catholic relationship where each under

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each group understands the other and they interact really positive

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ways that kind of generate a lot of value for both.

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But you've taken what could be a virtuous circle and

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really turned it into a vicious cycle.

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And I appreciate just to call that out for our

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listeners and viewers who haven't yet read the book as

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I have, that one of your strategies is to actually

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map out how your customer experience and your employee experience interact.

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And each time you change your customer experience, how is

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an employee experience impacted.

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I think that's really important to see.

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So I will comment more on that and when we

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come back from our break. But let's grab our first break.

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I'm your host, doctor Relie's Cortesz. We've been on the

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year with Melissa Swift. She's the founder of Anthrome Insight

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and Innovative organizational consultancy, helping organizations address the human side

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of organizations. We've been talking about a few of the

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issues that are really pertinent and invading organizations. Today, after

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the break, we're going to talk about one of the

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next ones, which is what she calls the organizational copy machine.

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We'll be right back.

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Doctor Elise Cortes is a management consultant specializing in meaning

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and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author, she helps companies

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visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired

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leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and

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commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite

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a lease to speak to your organization, please visit her

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00:19:30.319 --> 00:19:33.559
at elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get

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your employees working on purpose. This is working on Purpose

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with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or

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to open a conversation with Elise, send an email to

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Alise A Lise at elisecortes dot com. Now back to

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00:19:54.319 --> 00:19:55.440
working on Purpose.

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Pictures saying with us and welcome back to working on Purpose.

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I'm your host, doctor Realise core Tess.

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I am dedicated to helping create a world where organizations

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thrive because they're people thrive. They're led by inspirational leaders

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that help them find and contribute their greatness, and we

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do business a betters in the world. I keep researching

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and writing my own books, so one of my latest

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came out it's called the Great Revitalization, how activating meaning

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and purpose can radically in life in your business. And

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I really wrote that to help leaders understand today's very

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diverse and discerning workforce at a different sort of take

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that Melissa has done. And then I provide twenty two

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best practices that you can be used to equip and

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embed them into your cultures to provide that for them.

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You can find my books on Amazon or my personal

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site at leastcore tes dot com if you are just

416
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now joining us.

417
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My guest is Melissa Swift.

418
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She's the author of work here Now Think like a

419
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human and build a powerhouse workplace. So before we get

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into one of the other issues that you've outlined in

421
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the book, I did want to comment on this notion

422
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of customer service and the notion of really creating a

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spiler around that with the employee experience. The other extra

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dream of that that I think is also maybe equally present.

425
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It's just a complete lack of customer experience a customer service.

426
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I'm amazed how many organizations make it impossible for you

427
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to contact anybody anywhere in an organization to talk about

428
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a missed service and miss deadline and misproduct.

429
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Can't. It's amazing to me. So lots of room for

430
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improvement here, yes, Melissa.

431
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Yeah, absolutely, And you know, it's it's interesting because it's

432
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a version of the same thing we've been talking about

433
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in a weird way. It's just a there's I think,

434
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just a bad business myth about the less we see

435
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people as people, like, the more money we will make,

436
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you know, putting very stark terms, but what you're describing

437
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of because I had one of those experiences today, you know,

438
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speak to a human, speak to a human, No, speak

439
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to a human, right, And unfortunately, I think chatbot technology

440
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is making what you've described a lot worse. So we

441
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have the problem of kind of tech now layering on.

442
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But at the root this it's the same idea, you know,

443
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if we kind of fail to think about people as people,

444
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that's where we make business progress. And I just again

445
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I don't I don't buy it.

446
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I don't either. I don't either. Well I'm not.

447
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I'm choosing increasingly to move away from the organization so

448
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that I can't actually connect with and I think I

449
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don't feel you know, the heartbeat of voting with the

450
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wallet is we like to say, okay, so I think

451
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this next idea here that you have in your book

452
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is really, really, really powerful. We want to bring this

453
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to life and help our listeners and viewers understand it.

454
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And that's this notion of the organizational copy machine. Let's

455
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talk about what that really means.

456
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Yeah, so this is interesting. So the deep roots of

457
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this idea, actually it came from I wrote my college thesis,

458
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my senior thesis on Dracula and using some of Freud's

459
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ideas to analyze Dracula and esctatics and seven Gothic tails.

460
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And you know, one of the big Freudian ideas is

461
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this repetition compulsion, right, like we just can't stop doing

462
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the same stuff over and over. And it's a you know,

463
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it's a big and you know, obviously you're incredibly familiar

464
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with it, right because in therapeutic practice, right, there's a

465
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lot of focus on just pattern breaking. Let's stop doing

466
00:23:11.559 --> 00:23:14.319
the same silly thing over and over. So just like

467
00:23:14.440 --> 00:23:16.759
individuals do the same silly thing over and over, or

468
00:23:16.880 --> 00:23:20.599
families do the same silly thing over and over, organizations

469
00:23:20.960 --> 00:23:23.920
do the same silly thing over and over. And that's

470
00:23:23.960 --> 00:23:27.559
the organizational copy machine that left to our own devices

471
00:23:27.559 --> 00:23:29.720
in groups just just as in it, as you know,

472
00:23:29.759 --> 00:23:34.960
individuals will we will just copy paste the past right

473
00:23:35.079 --> 00:23:38.960
into the future, over and over and over and over.

474
00:23:39.039 --> 00:23:41.799
And that's I think some of the sometimes the frustration

475
00:23:41.960 --> 00:23:44.880
I hear from you know, practitioners that work on organizational

476
00:23:44.920 --> 00:23:48.039
culture is like, oh my goodness, we just have to

477
00:23:48.079 --> 00:23:50.119
stop doing the same silly things over and over. And

478
00:23:50.160 --> 00:23:53.119
I think that's why this idea of the organizational copy

479
00:23:53.200 --> 00:23:56.839
machine is really powerful, because again, if you can name

480
00:23:56.920 --> 00:23:59.680
the patterns, and to your point earlier, sometimes you need

481
00:23:59.680 --> 00:24:02.359
an next a party to say, look, when you did this,

482
00:24:02.440 --> 00:24:04.519
it was just like this. It was just like that,

483
00:24:04.559 --> 00:24:07.920
and it was just like that. Name the patterns and

484
00:24:08.000 --> 00:24:10.519
you have a chance of breaking the patterns. But I

485
00:24:10.519 --> 00:24:15.839
think until we really confront the fact that organizations will

486
00:24:15.920 --> 00:24:19.279
just neurotically repeat and repeat and repeat, you know, we're

487
00:24:19.279 --> 00:24:21.960
going to be kind of constantly unpleasantly surprised by things

488
00:24:22.000 --> 00:24:23.240
that should not be surprising.

489
00:24:24.720 --> 00:24:27.480
Indeed, indeed, so let's let's share a few of the

490
00:24:27.519 --> 00:24:29.200
shortgies to offer in the book. The first one I

491
00:24:29.240 --> 00:24:31.480
think is really quit quite quite interesting that I wanted

492
00:24:31.519 --> 00:24:34.160
to talk about, so listeners and viewers, just so you

493
00:24:34.200 --> 00:24:35.640
know what she's done in the book is for each

494
00:24:35.640 --> 00:24:38.079
of these issues that she said about, she then offers

495
00:24:38.200 --> 00:24:41.720
five organizational strategies and then five team strategies. And so

496
00:24:41.759 --> 00:24:44.279
I'm just focusing on the conversation for organizational for this

497
00:24:44.599 --> 00:24:47.920
for now. But the idea of creating a single account

498
00:24:47.920 --> 00:24:51.559
of truth on the workforce of your organization, however you

499
00:24:51.599 --> 00:24:54.079
employed them, and systems and processes to maintain it in

500
00:24:54.119 --> 00:24:57.400
real time, that's a really interesting idea. What would that

501
00:24:57.440 --> 00:24:59.839
look like, maintaining a single account of.

502
00:25:01.039 --> 00:25:04.359
Well, it starts from extremely basic basis. I mean, I

503
00:25:04.440 --> 00:25:06.920
will never forget the time I was in a conversation

504
00:25:06.920 --> 00:25:10.319
you know, you're talking about sophisticated human capital analytics and

505
00:25:10.960 --> 00:25:14.039
senior executive leans across the table with Melissa. I couldn't

506
00:25:14.079 --> 00:25:17.200
tell you how many employees be have I love have

507
00:25:17.279 --> 00:25:19.200
funny And He's like, no, no, no, I can't give

508
00:25:19.240 --> 00:25:22.759
you a number. I don't have that number accurate. And

509
00:25:22.799 --> 00:25:24.440
for me that was a little bit of a wake

510
00:25:24.519 --> 00:25:27.200
up call about how we in some ways need to

511
00:25:27.240 --> 00:25:31.359
rebuild the foundations of how we think about workforces, you know,

512
00:25:31.440 --> 00:25:35.000
and really say, you know, okay, right, we have this

513
00:25:35.119 --> 00:25:37.480
is okay, this is our activity group right, you've got

514
00:25:37.480 --> 00:25:40.400
a good account on those. But all those contractors, you

515
00:25:40.400 --> 00:25:43.160
don't employ them through HR. You employ them through procurement.

516
00:25:43.799 --> 00:25:46.200
You may not even know how many of them there are,

517
00:25:46.240 --> 00:25:48.400
Like maybe you're counting badges, maybe you're not.

518
00:25:48.559 --> 00:25:50.799
And then as the types of work get more varied

519
00:25:50.839 --> 00:25:53.519
and diverse, which is general a positive trend, right, Like

520
00:25:53.599 --> 00:25:56.799
you want big workers and task workers, and it's a

521
00:25:56.839 --> 00:25:59.279
good thing that the ways you can engage with the

522
00:25:59.319 --> 00:26:00.759
workforce more varied.

523
00:26:01.039 --> 00:26:03.920
I'm actually hearing a lot right now about making the

524
00:26:03.960 --> 00:26:08.000
retirement clip, which I think is a fabulous idea, right completely,

525
00:26:08.480 --> 00:26:11.119
Why do we chuck all of that institutional knowledge out

526
00:26:11.119 --> 00:26:14.279
todoor all and once, like it's silly. So in general,

527
00:26:14.359 --> 00:26:16.720
it's fantastic that we can employ people in a lot

528
00:26:16.759 --> 00:26:21.079
more different ways and modes. But if you don't, again,

529
00:26:21.119 --> 00:26:23.759
how can you manage your workforce if you don't quite

530
00:26:23.799 --> 00:26:26.440
know how many of them there are. If you don't

531
00:26:26.519 --> 00:26:30.839
know you know exactly how you pay them? Right, Because again,

532
00:26:30.880 --> 00:26:32.960
if you got this whole group you're paying through procurement,

533
00:26:33.279 --> 00:26:36.640
you know, you may be paying them way more per

534
00:26:36.680 --> 00:26:38.839
hour for the same work or way lesser. You know,

535
00:26:39.160 --> 00:26:41.559
doing some of this basic math and then actually getting

536
00:26:41.599 --> 00:26:44.680
into some analytics on what are you paying people for.

537
00:26:44.799 --> 00:26:47.680
So there was a wonderful study by some former mercer

538
00:26:47.720 --> 00:26:52.400
coworkers of mine where they looked at organizations stated strategies

539
00:26:52.440 --> 00:26:55.240
about what they compensated for versus what actually came out

540
00:26:55.240 --> 00:26:57.240
in their pay data. So all these organs are we

541
00:26:57.279 --> 00:27:00.440
pay for performance. Nope, you pay for tenure. People just

542
00:27:00.480 --> 00:27:03.720
have to stick around. That's what your data shows. And

543
00:27:03.799 --> 00:27:05.599
so you start to look at things like that, and

544
00:27:05.599 --> 00:27:07.880
that's where a single account of the truth is really important.

545
00:27:07.920 --> 00:27:10.319
You know, who do you employ, how do you pay them,

546
00:27:10.440 --> 00:27:12.559
what do you pay them for what? Again, back to

547
00:27:12.599 --> 00:27:14.359
the day to day, day to day what work are

548
00:27:14.400 --> 00:27:17.119
they doing? You know some of these basic basics. I

549
00:27:17.119 --> 00:27:20.759
think that's part of what actually again gets people working

550
00:27:20.759 --> 00:27:24.000
together really constructively, is that you may be treating people

551
00:27:24.039 --> 00:27:28.359
in kind of dramatically inequitable ways, again completely unintentionally, but

552
00:27:28.440 --> 00:27:31.680
also sort of you know, leveraging human talent in ways

553
00:27:31.680 --> 00:27:35.599
that's super inefficient. You know, you might be paying contractors

554
00:27:35.680 --> 00:27:39.559
to do really you know, sort of advanced vanguardish work

555
00:27:39.640 --> 00:27:42.599
that you should have FTEs doing or vice versa. Or

556
00:27:42.680 --> 00:27:45.799
you might be automating things that humans should still be doing,

557
00:27:45.920 --> 00:27:48.640
not automating things that you should be automating, et cetera,

558
00:27:48.720 --> 00:27:50.920
et cetera. But if you don't have that single account

559
00:27:50.920 --> 00:27:53.160
of the truth about what is the work, who does it,

560
00:27:53.400 --> 00:27:55.880
how do they get paid, et cetera, et cetera, you'll

561
00:27:55.920 --> 00:27:56.279
never know.

562
00:27:57.440 --> 00:28:00.440
Yes, indeed, And I can imagine there's a few people

563
00:28:00.440 --> 00:28:02.039
that are listening to this right now going, oh, my gosh,

564
00:28:02.039 --> 00:28:02.319
that's me.

565
00:28:02.480 --> 00:28:03.079
I don't know.

566
00:28:04.319 --> 00:28:06.279
So that one of the other strategies which we sort

567
00:28:06.319 --> 00:28:08.319
of alluded to in the last bit that we were

568
00:28:08.319 --> 00:28:10.480
talking about here, that you have here related to the

569
00:28:10.559 --> 00:28:17.200
organizational copy machine is just, yeah, maintaining in periodical energizing

570
00:28:17.240 --> 00:28:21.079
the organization and the conversation about how work actually gets done.

571
00:28:21.400 --> 00:28:23.160
And this is something that I can say, even in

572
00:28:23.160 --> 00:28:27.440
my little small consultancy, we are constantly looking at how

573
00:28:27.480 --> 00:28:29.960
to revise how we can do our work more effectively

574
00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:34.000
and efficiently, just because we have technology that is showing

575
00:28:34.079 --> 00:28:37.640
up in different ways and so being able to look

576
00:28:37.680 --> 00:28:40.480
at how is work getting done on a pretty regular

577
00:28:40.559 --> 00:28:43.519
periodic basis, I think that's a really powerful strategy that

578
00:28:43.559 --> 00:28:43.960
you offer.

579
00:28:45.240 --> 00:28:47.960
Yeah, and I think your point about technology is a

580
00:28:48.160 --> 00:28:50.039
great one. Because it's sort of like there's never been

581
00:28:50.079 --> 00:28:53.039
a better time to be constantly reevaluating, because if you

582
00:28:53.039 --> 00:28:55.160
think about some of those technologies, like I think of

583
00:28:55.279 --> 00:28:58.559
honestly chat GPT as one of my coworkers in my

584
00:28:58.599 --> 00:29:02.759
little entrepreneurial business, I think about co pilot as a different,

585
00:29:02.880 --> 00:29:06.799
less clever coworker, right, but co pilot is really good

586
00:29:06.799 --> 00:29:10.519
at certain things and chat chepps, but those underlying technologies

587
00:29:10.640 --> 00:29:13.160
change all the time. So to your point, even with

588
00:29:13.240 --> 00:29:16.920
my non human co workers, I'm constantly rethinking how the

589
00:29:16.960 --> 00:29:19.400
work gets done. But I think you know, in the

590
00:29:19.440 --> 00:29:22.119
current moment, there has never been a better time to

591
00:29:22.200 --> 00:29:22.480
do that.

592
00:29:24.480 --> 00:29:26.240
Yeah, And one of the other strategies you talk about,

593
00:29:26.240 --> 00:29:27.920
when there are many others as well, but I think

594
00:29:27.920 --> 00:29:30.000
this one is really important to talk about here, and

595
00:29:30.079 --> 00:29:32.000
I want to help more and more companies do this

596
00:29:32.039 --> 00:29:34.640
than I imagine you do too, and that is to

597
00:29:34.680 --> 00:29:38.279
reinvent HR on your organization's terms. And so I know

598
00:29:38.400 --> 00:29:41.079
that we have a tendency and it's just fac to

599
00:29:41.559 --> 00:29:46.359
the organizational copy machine. We are using policies back from

600
00:29:46.359 --> 00:29:49.960
the nineteen fifties, still sixties and seventies. It is insane.

601
00:29:50.640 --> 00:29:52.279
So let's talk a little bit about what would that

602
00:29:52.279 --> 00:29:54.440
look like to reinvent HR.

603
00:29:55.000 --> 00:30:00.519
Well, you know, I think some of it is honest

604
00:30:00.519 --> 00:30:04.160
about what are your true HR needs as an organization,

605
00:30:04.599 --> 00:30:06.799
because there are all kinds of sort of fads you know,

606
00:30:06.880 --> 00:30:10.720
agile agile talent pools in HR, and you know the

607
00:30:10.759 --> 00:30:13.240
three leg and stool and all these different constructs and

608
00:30:13.440 --> 00:30:15.759
different pieces of them. They may or may not be,

609
00:30:16.039 --> 00:30:19.119
you know, terrific for your organization. But rarely does an

610
00:30:19.160 --> 00:30:22.680
organization really take a step back and say, you know, okay,

611
00:30:22.720 --> 00:30:24.680
this is the general HR template, but what do we

612
00:30:24.799 --> 00:30:27.759
really what do we need? What is the what is

613
00:30:27.839 --> 00:30:29.000
the ACH here?

614
00:30:29.279 --> 00:30:29.480
Right?

615
00:30:29.519 --> 00:30:32.920
Like forget kind of checking all these compliance boxes? What

616
00:30:33.160 --> 00:30:35.839
is super painful? And you know, and it might lead

617
00:30:35.839 --> 00:30:38.039
you in a different direction than you think. So as

618
00:30:38.039 --> 00:30:40.279
of for instance, you could say the ach honestly, oh

619
00:30:40.359 --> 00:30:43.319
my god, you know it's it's employee relations, right, we

620
00:30:43.440 --> 00:30:46.200
have a zillion employee relations complaints. That's a mess. Well

621
00:30:47.279 --> 00:30:50.759
is that a function of funky leader behavior? Perhaps, because

622
00:30:50.799 --> 00:30:53.720
that might lead you in a completely different direction where

623
00:30:53.720 --> 00:30:56.559
you really staff up with hrbps who are high powered

624
00:30:56.599 --> 00:31:00.000
and can face off against your executives and create culture

625
00:31:00.319 --> 00:31:02.920
change that then solves for what looks like a big

626
00:31:02.920 --> 00:31:06.200
transactional er problem. But I think you have to kind

627
00:31:06.200 --> 00:31:08.720
of go into it with your your detective had on

628
00:31:09.279 --> 00:31:12.640
a bit and that's you know, again, you could slavishly

629
00:31:12.680 --> 00:31:15.559
adopt all these different trends and you could augment your

630
00:31:15.680 --> 00:31:17.880
tech stack. I mean, there's been so much focus on

631
00:31:18.039 --> 00:31:21.680
HR tech, and tech's not really the issue. It's what's

632
00:31:21.720 --> 00:31:25.319
the model and does the model serve your actual strategic objectives?

633
00:31:25.319 --> 00:31:30.000
And does the model? You know, are you actually kind

634
00:31:30.039 --> 00:31:35.559
of caring for the human beings in your organization? You know?

635
00:31:35.640 --> 00:31:39.279
I mean you wouldn't. You wouldn't treat the organization's external

636
00:31:39.319 --> 00:31:41.759
image this way in the marketing department. You wouldn't treat

637
00:31:41.759 --> 00:31:44.799
its money this way in the finance department, right, So

638
00:31:44.960 --> 00:31:47.880
don't treat your humans that way in the HR department.

639
00:31:49.839 --> 00:31:50.799
Well said Melissa.

640
00:31:50.799 --> 00:31:53.759
And it's just so simply stated and like, yes, let's

641
00:31:53.799 --> 00:31:56.640
just what's the I really applaud that and appreciate that.

642
00:31:57.319 --> 00:31:59.519
Grabbing our last break, I'm your host doctor really score

643
00:31:59.559 --> 00:32:01.920
Tees on the air with Melissa Swift. She's the founder

644
00:32:01.920 --> 00:32:06.960
of Anthron Insight and Innovative Organizational Consultancy, helping organizations to address.

645
00:32:06.599 --> 00:32:08.039
The human side of organizations.

646
00:32:08.359 --> 00:32:11.039
We've been talking about a few opportunities here to really

647
00:32:11.559 --> 00:32:15.079
change and elevate your game as an organization, including really

648
00:32:15.119 --> 00:32:18.200
looking at how you've got an organizational copy machine that's

649
00:32:18.240 --> 00:32:21.559
running your organization. After the REK, we're going to talk

650
00:32:21.599 --> 00:32:24.839
about one of the other opportunities to look at your

651
00:32:24.839 --> 00:32:28.960
decisions about people and really make them addressed to for

652
00:32:29.039 --> 00:32:29.559
your people.

653
00:32:29.720 --> 00:32:30.480
We'll be right back.

654
00:32:46.200 --> 00:32:49.359
Doctor Elise Courts has as a management consultant specializing in

655
00:32:49.440 --> 00:32:53.119
meaning and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author, she helps

656
00:32:53.160 --> 00:32:56.960
companies visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose

657
00:32:57.039 --> 00:33:01.359
inspired leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance,

658
00:33:01.440 --> 00:33:04.440
and commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to

659
00:33:04.559 --> 00:33:07.559
invite Elise to speak to your organization, please visit her

660
00:33:07.640 --> 00:33:10.880
at elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get

661
00:33:10.920 --> 00:33:19.680
your employees working on purpose. This is working on Purpose

662
00:33:19.839 --> 00:33:23.039
with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or

663
00:33:23.160 --> 00:33:25.839
to open a conversation with Elise, send an email to

664
00:33:25.960 --> 00:33:31.440
Alise A LISEE at elisecortes dot com. Now back to

665
00:33:31.640 --> 00:33:32.720
working on Purpose.

666
00:33:37.680 --> 00:33:39.440
Thanks for staying with us and welcome back to Working

667
00:33:39.519 --> 00:33:42.119
on Purpose. I'm your host, doctor Elise Cortes. As you

668
00:33:42.240 --> 00:33:44.880
know by now, this program is dedicated through empowering and

669
00:33:45.000 --> 00:33:47.839
inspiring you along your journey to realize more of your potential.

670
00:33:48.240 --> 00:33:49.440
If you want to learn more about how we can

671
00:33:49.519 --> 00:33:51.759
work together and learn about the Gusto Now Academy for

672
00:33:51.920 --> 00:33:55.720
leaders and individuals across various journeys alike, make your way

673
00:33:55.759 --> 00:33:58.920
to gustoshnow dot com and then navigate to the training

674
00:33:58.960 --> 00:34:01.119
tap and you can find the hav to meet content there.

675
00:34:01.720 --> 00:34:03.400
If you are just now joining us, My guess is

676
00:34:03.519 --> 00:34:06.680
Melissa Swift. She's the author of work here Now, Think

677
00:34:06.799 --> 00:34:11.840
like a Human and building a powerhouse workplace to me, Okay, so.

678
00:34:11.920 --> 00:34:13.199
Let's talk about this idea.

679
00:34:13.800 --> 00:34:16.440
This sounds again so simple and so eloquent, but if

680
00:34:16.480 --> 00:34:18.480
you could actually do this, what a game changer it

681
00:34:18.519 --> 00:34:18.800
would be.

682
00:34:18.880 --> 00:34:21.639
And that is you have this notion of decisions about

683
00:34:21.679 --> 00:34:22.639
people for people.

684
00:34:24.239 --> 00:34:28.320
Yeah. So it's interesting I wrote this chapter because people kept,

685
00:34:28.599 --> 00:34:32.280
like everyone around me, kept talking about human centric decisions

686
00:34:32.400 --> 00:34:34.159
and I couldn't find anything about how.

687
00:34:34.079 --> 00:34:34.440
To do it.

688
00:34:34.599 --> 00:34:36.519
So it's one of those things if I can't find

689
00:34:36.599 --> 00:34:38.639
you know how to do it I'll figure out how

690
00:34:38.679 --> 00:34:43.440
to do it. And it's interesting because really making human

691
00:34:43.519 --> 00:34:47.440
centric decisions a lot of times comes back into kind

692
00:34:47.480 --> 00:34:52.519
of super operational practical reality. Right, So just you know,

693
00:34:52.679 --> 00:34:56.320
thinking about, you know, if I make this decision this way,

694
00:34:56.880 --> 00:34:59.440
what are kind of some of the scenarios that might result?

695
00:34:59.559 --> 00:35:03.800
What are the actual human impacts? Is this decision sustainable?

696
00:35:04.079 --> 00:35:06.000
You know, is this something that human beings are going

697
00:35:06.039 --> 00:35:08.039
to be able to do in three or four years?

698
00:35:08.119 --> 00:35:14.599
Does this decision consider people as actual humans? So, you know,

699
00:35:14.880 --> 00:35:16.840
I'll give you an example that's interesting because it's a

700
00:35:17.039 --> 00:35:19.760
really neutral one. So a lot of the work that

701
00:35:19.800 --> 00:35:22.920
I've done has been global. Well, when you are trying

702
00:35:22.960 --> 00:35:26.320
to work globally, time zones are not your friend. I

703
00:35:26.400 --> 00:35:29.159
had one boss at one point from New Zealand who

704
00:35:29.519 --> 00:35:32.079
educated me and the entire team at great length about

705
00:35:32.079 --> 00:35:34.599
how hard it was to work from New Zealand, right

706
00:35:34.760 --> 00:35:37.639
and how they had calls scheduled at four in the morning,

707
00:35:37.679 --> 00:35:41.280
et cetera, et cetera. And you know a lot of

708
00:35:41.360 --> 00:35:44.239
times organizations will just say, well, we're working globally and

709
00:35:44.400 --> 00:35:45.639
you know you're going to be on the phone at

710
00:35:45.679 --> 00:35:49.039
two am or et cetera, et cetera. Well, it doesn't

711
00:35:49.159 --> 00:35:53.280
consider the sort of profound impact of sleep for human beings.

712
00:35:53.559 --> 00:35:56.320
And that doesn't mean you can't ever schedule to call

713
00:35:56.400 --> 00:35:58.920
at two am, but maybe it means for that particular country.

714
00:35:59.000 --> 00:36:01.519
You know, the call can like rotate around, So it's

715
00:36:01.559 --> 00:36:03.840
two am for New Zealand this week, it's two am

716
00:36:03.960 --> 00:36:06.559
for the US this week. You know things like that

717
00:36:06.960 --> 00:36:09.599
where you know, once I say it, you're like, well, God,

718
00:36:09.679 --> 00:36:11.719
what an organization would do it any other way? Melissa?

719
00:36:11.719 --> 00:36:13.880
And the answer is all of them. You know, we

720
00:36:14.000 --> 00:36:16.800
make all of these kind of silly, boneheaded moves because

721
00:36:16.800 --> 00:36:20.239
we're just not thinking about, you know, kind of basic

722
00:36:20.559 --> 00:36:24.400
human stuff like when what when we killed lunch. I

723
00:36:24.480 --> 00:36:26.119
actually talk about this in the book that I'm working

724
00:36:26.159 --> 00:36:29.320
on right now. When we killed lunch and suddenly we've

725
00:36:29.360 --> 00:36:33.039
got all these people acting weird in early afternoon meetings.

726
00:36:33.119 --> 00:36:37.800
Well you know what, they're angry, right, basic basic basic

727
00:36:37.920 --> 00:36:41.480
human basics around eating, around sleep, all of those things,

728
00:36:41.559 --> 00:36:43.599
Like just bring it back into the equation and then

729
00:36:43.719 --> 00:36:47.519
think through kind of operationally these decisions that you're making,

730
00:36:48.719 --> 00:36:52.440
You know, can they really play out in real time

731
00:36:52.679 --> 00:36:55.679
in the long run without humans having to kind of

732
00:36:55.760 --> 00:36:59.320
like stretch to fill the gap, right, Like, Okay, we're

733
00:36:59.320 --> 00:37:02.280
gonna we're going to develop the software an accelerated timeline.

734
00:37:02.360 --> 00:37:05.400
You know, Well, okay, if you don't have the technological

735
00:37:05.440 --> 00:37:07.960
tools that strictly speaking enable you to do that, right,

736
00:37:08.079 --> 00:37:10.840
then it's just humans staying up all night and probably

737
00:37:10.920 --> 00:37:13.239
producing an inferior product at the end of the day.

738
00:37:13.400 --> 00:37:13.519
Right.

739
00:37:13.599 --> 00:37:16.480
It's a good example of what's going to stretch into

740
00:37:16.480 --> 00:37:18.199
any system. It's going to be the humans.

741
00:37:19.639 --> 00:37:21.480
Well, and then what I would say to that, of course,

742
00:37:21.599 --> 00:37:24.639
for the practice that we serve for organizations, is well,

743
00:37:24.679 --> 00:37:28.480
now you have totally discounted that this person is attached

744
00:37:28.760 --> 00:37:31.280
to anything else in their life but you, the employer.

745
00:37:31.920 --> 00:37:33.960
They don't need sleep, they don't need to they don't

746
00:37:34.000 --> 00:37:35.760
have a family that they might actually want to see

747
00:37:35.760 --> 00:37:38.199
and engage with. They don't actually need to go out

748
00:37:38.239 --> 00:37:40.719
and exercise, they don't need to go out and buy groceries.

749
00:37:40.760 --> 00:37:41.840
They just need to hang out with you.

750
00:37:42.599 --> 00:37:44.840
And of course I've had guests on before we talk

751
00:37:44.840 --> 00:37:49.280
about what a tremendous disservice that is to this one

752
00:37:49.400 --> 00:37:51.840
human being, the quality of their life and the extent

753
00:37:51.920 --> 00:37:54.079
to which they could ever realize their potential, and of

754
00:37:54.119 --> 00:37:55.079
course I have a problem with that.

755
00:37:56.119 --> 00:37:59.800
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And then at the end of the day,

756
00:38:00.360 --> 00:38:02.880
if I always say, even if you don't care about

757
00:38:02.880 --> 00:38:05.559
the person as a person, which you should, even if

758
00:38:05.599 --> 00:38:08.679
you don't taking away to your point all of that

759
00:38:08.880 --> 00:38:11.719
other meaning in their life, are they going to really

760
00:38:11.760 --> 00:38:14.559
do their best for you? No, No, they're not. They're not.

761
00:38:14.800 --> 00:38:17.199
So it's lose loose, right, You're not getting the best

762
00:38:17.280 --> 00:38:19.880
of that person, and that person isn't getting the best

763
00:38:19.920 --> 00:38:20.559
of their life.

764
00:38:21.119 --> 00:38:21.280
You know.

765
00:38:21.559 --> 00:38:23.880
It's again it's a vicious cycle where it could be

766
00:38:24.000 --> 00:38:24.719
virtuous circle.

767
00:38:26.440 --> 00:38:26.639
Yeah.

768
00:38:27.239 --> 00:38:29.079
Yeah, So that brings me to just one of the

769
00:38:29.360 --> 00:38:31.480
strategies that you put forth here, number thirty four. I

770
00:38:31.519 --> 00:38:34.039
love that they all have numbers too, in very crisp names,

771
00:38:34.480 --> 00:38:36.239
and it's related to what we're talking about here.

772
00:38:36.400 --> 00:38:39.239
So it's this idea of make humanism an acceptable part

773
00:38:39.320 --> 00:38:40.920
of corporate discourse, in.

774
00:38:40.960 --> 00:38:43.480
Other words, make it possible to be able to have

775
00:38:43.639 --> 00:38:46.000
this kind of conversation inside your organization.

776
00:38:47.079 --> 00:38:49.280
Yeah. And it's interesting when you try to speak this

777
00:38:49.360 --> 00:38:52.159
way how quickly people will sometimes slap your hand. I mean,

778
00:38:52.199 --> 00:38:53.840
I've been in a few of those conversations in the

779
00:38:53.920 --> 00:38:57.280
last let's say three weeks where someone was like, oh no, Melissa,

780
00:38:57.360 --> 00:39:02.920
but ROI but stakeholders. But no, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope.

781
00:39:03.480 --> 00:39:05.559
You know it just like it.

782
00:39:06.639 --> 00:39:10.400
We cannot have a business discourse that does not allow

783
00:39:10.519 --> 00:39:13.159
for the human beings that actually create organizations. I mean,

784
00:39:13.199 --> 00:39:15.840
it's interesting. That's where the name of my company actually

785
00:39:15.960 --> 00:39:20.360
comes from. Is until two thousand and eight, biologists saw

786
00:39:20.480 --> 00:39:23.199
biomes and humans separately, so it would be like the tundra,

787
00:39:23.400 --> 00:39:25.920
and you know, people live in the tundra, and an

788
00:39:25.960 --> 00:39:29.840
anthrome was them acknowledging that when people live in an environment,

789
00:39:29.920 --> 00:39:32.599
they change it so fundamentally that the name should change.

790
00:39:32.760 --> 00:39:34.519
And I love that because that's like people that there's

791
00:39:34.559 --> 00:39:38.079
no people and organizations, right, it's one. It's one anthrome.

792
00:39:38.599 --> 00:39:41.599
And that's how with got to be thinking about it.

793
00:39:41.599 --> 00:39:44.480
And then we're like, I don't understand why productivity doesn't increase, well,

794
00:39:44.519 --> 00:39:48.280
because you couldn't understand what your organization was literally made of.

795
00:39:49.760 --> 00:39:51.199
I love the thought behind you.

796
00:39:51.440 --> 00:39:54.559
The name of your company's I appreciate that when there

797
00:39:54.599 --> 00:39:56.639
really is thought to it. Ours is Gusta now because

798
00:39:56.679 --> 00:39:59.559
we believe in Gusto and I speak Spanish and Portuguese,

799
00:39:59.599 --> 00:40:01.639
and I got the benefit of being in those cultures.

800
00:40:01.679 --> 00:40:04.199
They taught me about the power and the enlightening and

801
00:40:04.320 --> 00:40:09.760
lightning agent of passion and connection and relational experience, et cetera.

802
00:40:09.880 --> 00:40:13.039
So I really appreciate that yours also has a strong

803
00:40:13.159 --> 00:40:16.960
thought behind it. Okay, there's so much more we could

804
00:40:16.960 --> 00:40:18.760
talk about, but I would be remiss if I didn't

805
00:40:18.800 --> 00:40:21.519
have you talk about your chapter on the intention of

806
00:40:21.559 --> 00:40:26.559
workforce combating the Great Resignation by managing workforce populations more thoughtfully,

807
00:40:27.159 --> 00:40:29.119
given that, you know, one of my books is called,

808
00:40:29.280 --> 00:40:31.679
you know, the Great Revitalization, which is about combating the

809
00:40:31.719 --> 00:40:32.639
Great Resignation.

810
00:40:33.079 --> 00:40:34.840
So let's talk about what's going on there. What do

811
00:40:34.920 --> 00:40:36.679
you want to surface around that theme?

812
00:40:37.400 --> 00:40:41.079
Yeah, so I think the baseline data itself is super interesting,

813
00:40:41.199 --> 00:40:43.679
and again this gets to a lot of the thematics

814
00:40:43.719 --> 00:40:46.039
that you touch in your work that at any given

815
00:40:46.119 --> 00:40:48.920
time and this baseline has been the same across kind

816
00:40:48.920 --> 00:40:51.480
of a crazy long period of time. About twenty eight

817
00:40:51.559 --> 00:40:55.639
percent of any given organization that's thinking about quitting. That's,

818
00:40:56.519 --> 00:40:58.480
you know, to your point of two seconds ago about

819
00:40:58.480 --> 00:41:01.639
the role of passion, Right, that's almost a third of

820
00:41:01.679 --> 00:41:05.760
your workforce that's like, you know what, my passion's gone, right,

821
00:41:05.920 --> 00:41:09.960
I'm about two seconds from being out the door. And

822
00:41:10.079 --> 00:41:13.519
then the interesting thing is that percentage varies by different

823
00:41:13.800 --> 00:41:18.400
you know, demographic groups, so you know, depending on what

824
00:41:19.119 --> 00:41:21.119
you know, piece of the population you're from, you may

825
00:41:21.159 --> 00:41:24.039
be even more alienated than that or you know, And

826
00:41:24.639 --> 00:41:28.239
that to me is a fascinating concept because the Great resignation,

827
00:41:28.320 --> 00:41:30.119
I think again it is one of those like water

828
00:41:30.239 --> 00:41:32.400
coming out of the lagoon moments that shows the rocks.

829
00:41:34.119 --> 00:41:36.559
I think it highlighted how there is this sort of

830
00:41:36.719 --> 00:41:39.360
long run slow burn, you know, and again a lot

831
00:41:39.400 --> 00:41:43.360
of us see in our work engagement crisis, it really is.

832
00:41:45.000 --> 00:41:47.559
And then and just also that your your mileage may vary.

833
00:41:47.760 --> 00:41:50.800
I think that's the other piece is that if you're

834
00:41:50.840 --> 00:41:53.159
the leadership of an organization and you come from one

835
00:41:53.159 --> 00:41:55.760
of the demographic groups that where the problems are not

836
00:41:55.840 --> 00:41:59.559
as pronounced, you're like, okay, everything's fine, Sunny's guy's happy days,

837
00:42:00.199 --> 00:42:03.280
and you don't necessarily until somebody kind of shows you

838
00:42:03.360 --> 00:42:06.840
the data say well, you know, look x percent of

839
00:42:06.920 --> 00:42:10.039
your coworkers from why group we're thinking about quitting every day.

840
00:42:10.280 --> 00:42:12.639
Like that's that's something.

841
00:42:12.760 --> 00:42:16.119
To combat right, And if they're thinking about that, we

842
00:42:16.199 --> 00:42:19.039
already know it's going to detract from their focus on

843
00:42:19.119 --> 00:42:21.239
their productivity and their actual work. If that's what they're

844
00:42:21.280 --> 00:42:23.199
thinking about, right, that's where their thoughts are, that's where

845
00:42:23.199 --> 00:42:26.599
the energy is. So there are three groups that you.

846
00:42:26.800 --> 00:42:29.320
Identified in your book that I think are really important

847
00:42:29.360 --> 00:42:31.119
for us to talk about so that our listeners and

848
00:42:31.199 --> 00:42:34.480
viewers can start to consider how many of these groups

849
00:42:34.559 --> 00:42:37.440
that they might have this impact in their organization. And

850
00:42:37.519 --> 00:42:41.239
you talk about how these three categories are deeply dissatisfied

851
00:42:41.239 --> 00:42:42.800
and potentially looking for other jobs.

852
00:42:42.639 --> 00:42:43.239
All the time.

853
00:42:43.719 --> 00:42:47.239
So one of them is groups who've experienced demographically based discrimination.

854
00:42:47.400 --> 00:42:48.880
Can you talk a bit about what that means?

855
00:42:50.079 --> 00:42:52.679
Yeah, you know, it's an interesting one. This one really

856
00:42:52.760 --> 00:42:54.719
came to life for me, not even so much from

857
00:42:54.760 --> 00:42:56.639
the data. The data was already pretty bad, but when

858
00:42:56.880 --> 00:42:59.920
I went out and did some interviews and folks are

859
00:43:00.320 --> 00:43:04.599
speaking about once you've experienced kind of you've taken enough

860
00:43:04.880 --> 00:43:08.159
kind of slaps across the face in terms of just

861
00:43:08.239 --> 00:43:12.199
feeling like you've not been treated fairly. At that point,

862
00:43:12.400 --> 00:43:15.280
it's like your whole tie to work is just it's

863
00:43:15.320 --> 00:43:18.679
just it just loosens and so they said, you know,

864
00:43:18.920 --> 00:43:20.960
you would you might need a raise of x percent

865
00:43:21.119 --> 00:43:23.519
to lure away my other coworker who hasn't experienced what

866
00:43:23.559 --> 00:43:25.800
I've experienced. But it only has to be half of

867
00:43:25.880 --> 00:43:28.760
that for me because I'm just not as closely tied

868
00:43:28.800 --> 00:43:33.599
to this organization. And it's interesting because it transcends the

869
00:43:33.800 --> 00:43:37.599
actual organization. It might be that you haven't actually been

870
00:43:37.719 --> 00:43:41.199
necessarily discriminated against at the particular company that you're at

871
00:43:41.320 --> 00:43:44.920
at that moment. It's just the experience of discrimination kind

872
00:43:44.960 --> 00:43:47.599
of builds up in your psyche and you don't bond

873
00:43:47.639 --> 00:43:50.800
to organizations in the same way, which is a perfectly

874
00:43:51.039 --> 00:43:56.079
rational response. That's what makes it kind of heartbreaking, is

875
00:43:56.679 --> 00:43:58.199
you know, I see that, and I kind of go, yeah,

876
00:43:58.440 --> 00:44:01.559
I get it. I get it that you wouldn't at

877
00:44:01.559 --> 00:44:04.199
a certain point, you just wouldn't invest in any employer.

878
00:44:04.840 --> 00:44:06.719
You wouldn't give your heart and soul in the same way.

879
00:44:06.880 --> 00:44:11.079
And that's that's sort of it's it's sort of super sad,

880
00:44:11.199 --> 00:44:14.039
and it's worth it's worth thinking about because a lot

881
00:44:14.039 --> 00:44:15.880
of times people say, well, we're a good company, we

882
00:44:15.960 --> 00:44:19.320
don't discriminate, But that's not the part that matters. It's

883
00:44:19.360 --> 00:44:23.320
that individual's experience over their lifetime that they are bringing

884
00:44:23.360 --> 00:44:26.079
into that job. And that's what you have to think about.

885
00:44:27.119 --> 00:44:28.679
Right, And I certainly look at you know that one

886
00:44:28.800 --> 00:44:29.400
precious life.

887
00:44:29.440 --> 00:44:34.039
This is somebody's precious child who deserves dignity, love and respect,

888
00:44:34.119 --> 00:44:35.239
and it's not feeling that.

889
00:44:35.480 --> 00:44:38.159
So it's related of course to the concepts of inclusive

890
00:44:38.440 --> 00:44:39.320
conclusivity or.

891
00:44:39.440 --> 00:44:42.400
Not feeling like you belong or feeling passed over or

892
00:44:42.519 --> 00:44:44.599
that nobody sees me and all these sort of things.

893
00:44:44.639 --> 00:44:47.079
So we say discrimination and sometimes people are.

894
00:44:47.039 --> 00:44:48.960
Like, oh no, wait, we don't do that, We don't

895
00:44:49.000 --> 00:44:52.199
do that, right, but but it shows up so many

896
00:44:52.360 --> 00:44:57.920
other and other very slight ways that you need you

897
00:44:57.960 --> 00:45:00.360
are just not at all aware, but they serve they are.

898
00:45:00.599 --> 00:45:04.239
So I think your word heartbreaking is exactly the right

899
00:45:04.320 --> 00:45:07.800
word to use. Okay, So another group that you talk

900
00:45:07.840 --> 00:45:10.440
about that is deeply dissatisfied and potentially looking for other

901
00:45:10.519 --> 00:45:13.320
work are groups who are more loosely tied to their

902
00:45:13.320 --> 00:45:16.000
employers by virtue of life cycle or role.

903
00:45:16.519 --> 00:45:17.239
Say more about that.

904
00:45:18.559 --> 00:45:21.639
Yeah, so you know, this is the other interesting thing

905
00:45:22.079 --> 00:45:26.039
is you know, again we're employing people in more diverse ways,

906
00:45:26.639 --> 00:45:30.360
and you know, and also you go through different permutations

907
00:45:30.400 --> 00:45:33.239
and combinations of different kinds of jobs within the organization.

908
00:45:34.679 --> 00:45:36.639
You know, you might be at a point in your

909
00:45:36.719 --> 00:45:38.760
life where your life, you know, to your point about

910
00:45:38.760 --> 00:45:40.480
there's all this other stuff in your life. You might

911
00:45:40.559 --> 00:45:42.320
be at a point where your life's just a little

912
00:45:42.360 --> 00:45:46.960
bit less about work. And again, we kind of apply

913
00:45:47.119 --> 00:45:50.559
this very flat lens of engagement to folks. Sometimes we're like, well,

914
00:45:50.760 --> 00:45:54.280
the bad people are less engaged. Well, no, I think

915
00:45:54.360 --> 00:45:56.119
that this insight is all about there are a lot

916
00:45:56.199 --> 00:46:00.800
of good reasons why you might not have that close

917
00:46:00.880 --> 00:46:04.599
tie to your employer at that exact moment. But at

918
00:46:04.639 --> 00:46:08.079
the same time, you know, it's a it's a watch

919
00:46:08.159 --> 00:46:10.039
out for the employer.

920
00:46:09.760 --> 00:46:09.880
You know.

921
00:46:09.960 --> 00:46:12.039
I think you see some of it with for instance,

922
00:46:12.159 --> 00:46:16.760
RTO mandates, Yes, really hitting you know, let's say, you know,

923
00:46:16.800 --> 00:46:20.400
women with kids, and it was a group that was

924
00:46:20.599 --> 00:46:25.039
again already not totally feeling it, and then you hit

925
00:46:25.079 --> 00:46:27.320
them with that and that was it, and people are going, wow,

926
00:46:27.400 --> 00:46:27.920
they just quit.

927
00:46:28.440 --> 00:46:30.440
Yeah, your camel's back.

928
00:46:30.519 --> 00:46:33.800
Yeah. Absolutely. When the thread is already freed, it doesn't

929
00:46:33.840 --> 00:46:35.360
take a lot for it to snap. And I think

930
00:46:35.400 --> 00:46:37.760
that's how we kind of have to think about these groups.

931
00:46:37.840 --> 00:46:41.519
But you know, also again if you some of these

932
00:46:41.559 --> 00:46:45.480
little things about little nuances, if your contractors all were

933
00:46:45.519 --> 00:46:49.440
different badges in the cafeteria, you know, even little things

934
00:46:49.519 --> 00:46:52.000
like that, you know they again you can't vault them

935
00:46:52.079 --> 00:46:53.920
for having a different relationship to.

936
00:46:53.920 --> 00:46:57.880
The organization, right right, So, Ruth, because we're coming out

937
00:46:57.880 --> 00:46:59.880
of time here, But the last group really quick guard

938
00:47:00.079 --> 00:47:02.679
you talk about that really are feeling dissatisfied and potentially

939
00:47:02.760 --> 00:47:05.639
looking for other jobs or groups and industries with long

940
00:47:05.719 --> 00:47:08.880
standing structural issues that flare during the pandemic. Can you

941
00:47:09.199 --> 00:47:11.039
briefly speak to that, and then we're going to talk

942
00:47:11.039 --> 00:47:13.320
about maybe one strategy we can maybe address here.

943
00:47:13.880 --> 00:47:17.800
Yeah, well, if you're in retail, healthcare, any of these things,

944
00:47:17.880 --> 00:47:22.320
we're kind of the model of really serving customers properly

945
00:47:22.519 --> 00:47:25.079
in a way that also works for employees has had

946
00:47:25.119 --> 00:47:29.000
a ton of friction. You're in one of those industries, right,

947
00:47:29.239 --> 00:47:31.719
you are, again, you are at risk. I mean, if

948
00:47:31.840 --> 00:47:34.599
I'm a hospital, I should be thinking about all my

949
00:47:34.719 --> 00:47:37.440
nurses in that category, just as a for instance.

950
00:47:37.639 --> 00:47:39.440
Right and just you know, we know how expensive it

951
00:47:39.519 --> 00:47:41.760
is to replace people, to train them and such. And

952
00:47:41.840 --> 00:47:43.679
then there's of course what they have to say to

953
00:47:43.679 --> 00:47:46.280
other people when they leave your organization. So just one

954
00:47:46.320 --> 00:47:48.400
strategy that you talk about to be able to address

955
00:47:48.440 --> 00:47:52.440
this issue here is figure out which employee groups are

956
00:47:52.519 --> 00:47:55.039
burned out and which ones are fed up, and design

957
00:47:55.079 --> 00:47:59.159
differentiated strategies to address each of these issues. It's probably

958
00:47:59.280 --> 00:48:01.280
really obvious too if you just start looking at this

959
00:48:01.360 --> 00:48:03.440
and you could just say a little bit about this strategy.

960
00:48:03.719 --> 00:48:07.039
Absolutely absolutely well. Some of it is that you have

961
00:48:07.159 --> 00:48:09.599
to kind of engage with the concept of fed upness

962
00:48:09.800 --> 00:48:13.719
and fed upness is there's a structural problem, you know,

963
00:48:13.840 --> 00:48:16.679
so oh goodness, our software engineers keep quitting. Well, what

964
00:48:16.920 --> 00:48:19.840
is it about how you design software engineering jobs? What

965
00:48:19.960 --> 00:48:21.920
is it about how you manage software engineers? Right? You

966
00:48:21.960 --> 00:48:26.719
see these little data pockets? Right then you've got to say, okay,

967
00:48:26.800 --> 00:48:29.519
it's not you know, burnout is already bad, but this

968
00:48:29.840 --> 00:48:31.880
might be fed up. This might be structural, and I

969
00:48:31.960 --> 00:48:34.320
might need to make structural choices differently.

970
00:48:36.199 --> 00:48:38.840
Melissa, this has been amazing. It's gone by so incredibly fast,

971
00:48:38.920 --> 00:48:40.280
but I want to give you the chance. You know,

972
00:48:40.400 --> 00:48:42.559
the show's listening to by people around the world. Many

973
00:48:42.559 --> 00:48:44.199
of them are tuning in because they want to become

974
00:48:44.280 --> 00:48:47.199
better leaders themselves. They want to run their organizations in

975
00:48:47.239 --> 00:48:49.840
a better fashion, or they're just trying to learn how

976
00:48:49.880 --> 00:48:51.880
to be able to experience work in a better way

977
00:48:51.960 --> 00:48:52.639
for themselves.

978
00:48:53.000 --> 00:48:54.039
What would you like to leave them with?

979
00:48:55.519 --> 00:48:57.480
Yeah, I would say I come back to the point

980
00:48:57.519 --> 00:49:00.639
that we started with, honestly, the everyday experience answer work.

981
00:49:00.679 --> 00:49:02.880
I think the closer you can get to the everyday

982
00:49:03.000 --> 00:49:06.559
experience of work, that's that's where the real insights lie.

983
00:49:06.639 --> 00:49:09.119
So just keep keep pressing on that simple thing.

984
00:49:10.519 --> 00:49:12.360
That is a fantastic, crisp way to close.

985
00:49:12.440 --> 00:49:12.800
Melissa.

986
00:49:12.840 --> 00:49:14.679
I'm really delighted to know you. I learned a lot

987
00:49:14.760 --> 00:49:16.920
in your book. That's part of why I keep hosting

988
00:49:17.000 --> 00:49:18.719
the show, and then I meet amazing humans.

989
00:49:18.480 --> 00:49:20.960
Like you, So thank you for coming on working on purpose.

990
00:49:21.559 --> 00:49:23.559
Well, thank you for having me. Frankly, I feel the

991
00:49:23.599 --> 00:49:25.679
same way. I feel so excited to have connected with

992
00:49:25.800 --> 00:49:28.440
you and the work you're doing, and I was really honored.

993
00:49:28.159 --> 00:49:31.480
To be on. I'm so glad. Thank you listeners and viewers.

994
00:49:31.519 --> 00:49:32.800
You are going to want to learn more about this

995
00:49:32.920 --> 00:49:35.800
amazing human Melissa Swift, the work she's doing it and

996
00:49:35.920 --> 00:49:39.199
throm insight in her new book Work here Now. So

997
00:49:39.280 --> 00:49:41.079
there's a couple of ways you can find her. One

998
00:49:41.239 --> 00:49:45.119
is by visiting her website. It's anthromeinsight dot com. Let

999
00:49:45.159 --> 00:49:47.880
me spell that for you so anthrom is A N

1000
00:49:48.119 --> 00:49:51.719
T h R O M E and then insight I

1001
00:49:51.960 --> 00:49:55.159
N S I G h T so anthrominsight dot com.

1002
00:49:55.679 --> 00:49:58.800
Or find Jo on LinkedIn. Last week, we missed the

1003
00:49:58.800 --> 00:50:01.079
live show you can always catch to be recorded podcast.

1004
00:50:01.159 --> 00:50:04.199
We are on air with Pritharage Childre talking.

1005
00:50:03.960 --> 00:50:07.440
About his book The World Is Your Office, How work

1006
00:50:07.480 --> 00:50:11.360
from Anywhere boosts talent, productivity and innovation. Next week will

1007
00:50:11.360 --> 00:50:13.280
be on the air with Rich Davinnie talking about his

1008
00:50:13.440 --> 00:50:16.719
book Masters of Uncertainty, The Navy Seal Way to turn

1009
00:50:16.760 --> 00:50:19.800
Stress into success for you and your team. So you,

1010
00:50:19.920 --> 00:50:22.639
then and together, let's lean in and learn together how

1011
00:50:22.719 --> 00:50:25.239
to make workplaces that work for everyone and find ways

1012
00:50:25.239 --> 00:50:27.280
to do business that in a way that betters the world.

1013
00:50:27.599 --> 00:50:28.599
Let's work on Purpose.

1014
00:50:32.519 --> 00:50:35.119
We hope you've enjoyed this week's program. Be sure to

1015
00:50:35.199 --> 00:50:38.840
tune into Working on Purpose featuring your host, doctor Elise Cortes,

1016
00:50:39.000 --> 00:50:42.159
each week on W four C. Why Together, We'll create

1017
00:50:42.199 --> 00:50:46.320
a world where business operates conscientiously. Leadership inspires and passion

1018
00:50:46.400 --> 00:50:49.440
performance and employees are fulfilled in work that provides the

1019
00:50:49.519 --> 00:50:52.800
meaning and purpose. They crave see you there. Let's work

1020
00:50:52.960 --> 00:50:53.599
on purpose.