Oct. 21, 2025

Leading in Chaos for High Performance: Wisdom Straight from the C-Suite

Leading in Chaos for High Performance: Wisdom Straight from the C-Suite
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Leading for high performance in today’s complex, ever-changing world takes seeking out and drawing on a wealth of guidance from experts who can help you “see around corners” you didn’t even know existed. A leader in eleven successful mergers, transformations, and reinventions himself, Ken Banta has tapped into the wisdom and experience of a dazzling array of C-Suite leaders who provide perspective on navigating tariffs, government upheaval, and immigration crackdowns while blazing forward.

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The topics and opinions express in the following show are

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What's working on Purpose?

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Anyway?

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Each week we ponder the answer to this question. People

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ache for meaning and purpose at work, to contribute their

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talents passionately and know their lives really matter. They crave

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being part of an organization that inspires them and helps

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them grow into realizing their highest potential. Business can be

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such a force for good in the world, elevating humanity.

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In our program, we provide guidance and inspiration to help

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usher in this world we all want working on Purpose.

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Now here's your host, doctor Elise Cortez.

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Welcome back to the Working and Purpose Program, which has

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been brought to you with passionate a pride since February

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of twenty fifteen. Thanks for Tunadian this week. Great to

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have you. I'm your host, doctor Release Courts. If we've

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not met before and you don't know me, I'm a

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course advisor, organizational psychologist to management consultant, logo therapist, speaker

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and author. My team and I at gusto Now help

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companies to alignment and fortify their operations by building a

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dynamic high performance culture, inspirational leadership and nursering managers activated

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by meeting and purpose. You can learn how to work

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with us and what we offer at gustodeshnow dot com

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or my personal site at lease courtes dot com. Getting

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into today's program, we have Ken Banta, who is a leader,

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a leader in eleven successful mergers, transformations and reinventions, including

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pharmacia sharing, Plow and Bausch and Lohm. At the Vanguard Network.

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He has built a unique organization that brings experience, dynamic

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top executives together for unfettered, uncentered, censored, and highly interactive

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exchanges around leadership. He's the author of Seeing Around Corners

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c C Wisdom from America's Insightful Leaders, which we're talking

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about today. He joined us from New York City Ken.

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Welcome to Working on Purpose.

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Well, thank you for having me.

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It's great to have you. I thoroughly enjoy this beautiful

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book you brought into the world. In fact, I did

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reach out to I think all of the contributors on

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LinkedIn to connect with them, and I had one of

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your contributors, Wes Adams, on my podcast. I think it

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was a couple of weeks ago.

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O terrific.

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So I really really appreciate what you did. It's delightful.

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So I want to start by let's just start with

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what you're doing. I love the idea of the Vanguard Network.

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Can you kind of help us understand that because it

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seems to me I'm wondering if that's how you've met

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several of your contributors. But what's the Vanguard network?

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Yeah, thanks for asking. The Vanguard Network really emerged out

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of the work that I did in those turnarounds and

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transformations that you mentioned in a prior life of mine

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as an executive in some of these very large but

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very troubled companies, and we were very successful in turning

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them around in a positive way, in the sense that

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not to dismantle them, but to actually turn them into growth.

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Engines again and so after that period I was advised

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by a couple of the previous people I'd worked with

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it wouldn't it be an interesting idea to apply some

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of these insights to helping other executives and companies. So

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that's how Vanguard was created back in twenty fourteen. We

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started out initially working with Life Science as leaders and

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the focus though has always stayed the same, which was

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to help develop leadership capabilities and insights among senior people,

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and then also through our advisory side, to work with

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some of them on their own company turnarounds, transformations or

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personal leadership. So that was the genesis of Vanguard, and

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then in the past roughly ten years, we've expanded what

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we do to include General counsels and their deputies, and

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you know gcs play really important and growing role in companies.

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We also have a dedicated group now of life sciences CEOs,

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and we recently launched a network of executives in risk management,

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which cuts across sectors. It's not to any one one

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one one person or one one role, but often people

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in everything from compliance to finance to the General Council's

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office can be involved in risk. So we have a

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kind of a multidisciplinary group on that network. So those

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are the two things we do, networks of these senior

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people and then also advising some of them on their

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own leadership.

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Brilliant. You must have just famulous company that you get

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to keep.

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Yeah, it's exciting, it's you know, very stimulating people. And

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the topics that we cover are usually very very hot

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topics because those are the things that are on the

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of these senior people.

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Awesome. Well, what I thought we could do for our

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conversation here, Ken, since your book is a collection of voices,

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I mean, I don't know how many voices that were

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in there, but you have them arranged by chapter by topic.

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So what I wanted to do was just for some

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of the chap chapters particularly that called out to me.

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There was a couple of people in there in their

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perspective that I thought perhaps we could call out, and

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I didn't want to hear your perspective too, if you

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had something you wanted to say on the matter. So

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the first one, of course, is on leadership and success.

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I did grab one of your quotes from there. I

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don't know if you want to start with that, sure,

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go ahead, So you say there is a special challenge

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for founders of companies to continue their journey to the

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next level and maintain success. And in fact, the track

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record is not good for founders leading their companies into

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a third or fourth or fifth year. Very often, as

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we know, they get derailed. And it's so sad because

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we all start with such conviction, such passion, such determination.

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Then the numbers are we crashing for why is that?

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Well? I think there's a few things going on there.

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In some cases there's an opportunity to reinvent yourself as

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a leader, which doesn't happen, and that can be one

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cause of failure. As circumstances change or as the demands

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for bandwidth grow, some leaders succeed in reimagining what they

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are and how they'll work. A good example would be today,

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some leaders who may even be you know, in their

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in their fifties or sixties, may have figured out how

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to connect with the new generation of Gen zs and

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able to get on their wavelength. Others really are kind

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of stuck in the past. They may find this generation

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frustrating or somehow you know, not the way they used

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to be, which I always think is a kind of

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an indicator that they they themselves have sort of passed

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their sell by date, but the same, you know, but

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others do that very well to that. And there's a

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there's a c I worked with in the past on

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a number of these turnarounds and transformations named Fred Hassen

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who's still really a legendary figure in the world of CEOs,

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and during a meeting we asked him his view about

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how to deal with the gen zs. And this is

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someone who's in his seventies now, and he had one

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of the best answers I've heard from anyone in a

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long time. So you have to really treat this generation

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with great care because they had to grow up during

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COVID and go to college during COVID, and during a

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vast technological revolution that they're in at the moment that

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we're all facing with generative AI and all the other things.

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So you know, you've really got to see them for

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who they are and also have to really work hard

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to help them succeed because they are the future. So

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you know, that's the right kind of it.

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I like that while we're on that subject, Ken, let's

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just go ahead and jump to you. I really thought

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this was fantastic and I have, of course, am a

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champion for making sure that everyone is fulfilled and succeeds

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in the workplace, all generations, all people. And I love

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this quote that you have that is given through Paul Hastings,

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the CEO of Nikarta Therapeutics. He says, he says, He says,

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he said, some guys stood up in some meeting apparently

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and said, I don't know about the rest of you guys,

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but I don't know how to manage gen zers. I

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don't know how to manage millennials, and read says. I

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looked at him and said, then get the hell out,

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because your company's full of generations Zers and millennials, and

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if and if you don't want to deal with them,

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you should get out. All dogs need to learn new tricks.

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And the tricks about Generation Z is that they care

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whether they're They don't care whether they're LGBT or straight.

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They have pronouns and words for everything, and I think

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it's wonderful that's what they want. And so we as leaders,

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if we want millennials and want gen zers, guess what

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we have to learn that language.

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Yeah, well, I think Paul is a great CEO in

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many respects. I think that that's really a not only

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a kind of admirable point of view, but it's a

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very practical point of view. You know, you can't escape reality.

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And to be a CEO who has sort of decided

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they an't going to have anything to do with the

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next generation of people, is is a sort of bizarre approach. Certainly,

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you know that that would be the kind of approach

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I think we're going to not not be necessarily very successful.

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And back to that question, I don't know what the

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generation was of that person who said those things, but

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you know, it might be that they were you know,

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sort of let's call it more tenured person. But that

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kind of you know, reaction to an entire generation of

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people who are you know, the future of your businesses

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is I think really kind of counterproductive. Yeah.

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I do too, I do too, Head and sand for sure.

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Yeah.

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I actually had a I was speaking at HR Southwest

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conference here last week and there was a conversation about

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gen z ers, and even Johnny C. Taylor said some

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remarks about gen zers, and I thought, well, these different

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conversations were along the same tone of you know, you

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can't do anything with gen zers, and I reached out

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to a CEO friend that I know down in Houston

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and asked, Hey, you know you run a very large

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e commerce organization. I know you have all kinds of

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gen z Ers and Milendos in your organization, as has

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been your perspective, And he said no, he said, my

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experience is that gen z and millennials want purpose. They

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want to be able to live their values. They want transparency,

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they want meaningful work, and they want to be able

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to enjoy their fuller lives. And if you can appeal

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to that, they're pretty darn good workers.

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Yes. And also, I think we all get a little

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confused between a certain generational factor of characteristics that we

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associate with gen Zs or that are associated with them

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a certain attitude or way of operating. And I think

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that's something that just gets confused with the fact that

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they're all in a certain age of their life. And

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so any of the people who are very critical about

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gen Z's should probably recollect what they were like at

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twenty one and just and think about it, because I

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think a lot of people grow out of some of

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the habits that bother people. You know, for example, you

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know gen Zs are often associated with being very opinionated

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and very willful and very uh uh judgmental of other people.

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And you know my own feeling about that as well,

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that's pretty much the way I was when I was

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at agent. I. You know, maybe I'm still a bit

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like that, but you know, people do mature, and I

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think that's probably what we're going to see with this

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generation as well.

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That is a fresh perspective. And thank you for that.

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That's really fresh. Let's let's go on to the next

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topic here and there when you have a chapter on

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making a great leader, and I think there's a there's

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one particular contribution in there that really called me because

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it really spoke about the need for leaders today to

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get tough feedback. If you have some perspective, you want

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to add.

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To that that they need to seek out tough feedback.

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Yeah, got tough feedback yet and receive it?

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Yes, Well take it in the further up you go

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in any organization, whether it's you know, the Boy Scouts

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or or a or Microsoft, you're going to get more

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and more isolated from reality. And so I think really

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really good leaders make a special effort to stay connected.

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And one of the best ways to be connected is

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to hear uh, you know reality right, And Romsharan, the

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Great Strategic Advisor, wrote an entire book on confronting reality,

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And I think that's really what tough feedback essentially provides.

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It's probably tough, but fair would be the right way

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to look at it. I don't think you benefit from

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really imaginary bad feedback, but realistic tough feedback I think

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is really useful in terms of, you know, what are

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people really thinking, what are people really saying? How do

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people respond to the way you operate? You know, I've

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had my own team explain to me that I tend

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to dominate the conversation and have an answer for a

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lot of things, and I should actually just ask some questions.

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So that's, you know, perfectly legitimate, and I'm glad they

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raise it. But you know, when you become a CEO

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of a very large organization, it's unfortunately very hard to

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get that kind of honest feedback. And I would say though,

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also that really good leaders bring people around them who

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will provide that kind of input, And in a way

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it's the sort of commentary on your leadership of all

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you have around you are yes people.

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No doubt, no doubt, You're reminding me ken I had

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a guest on I don't remember when it was sometime

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back who his name is Jeff Wetzler. He wrote a

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really fantastic book about the power of the feedback that's

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constantly availble to you and around you if only you'll

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tap into it. So learning how to ask people, hey,

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how'd that go? How did this land for you? Making

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it safe for them to give you real candid feedback,

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and then making them feel that you really appreciate their

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contribution and that you recognize it, and then you make

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that part of your culture. That becomes pretty powerful.

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I think a lot of that kind of behavior can

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be almost turned into a trademark for your leadership. And

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a good example for me is that in one of

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these past companies that I was part of, in fact,

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in several, we made a habit of going out to

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country operations or field operations, to manufacturing sites or to

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markets outside the US or in the US. And the

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first thing that we did, I think it was a

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you know, symbolically important was to not go talk to

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the leadership team, but to go have a meeting with

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the people who are on the front lines, whether it's

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the manufacturing people or the salespeople, and we then had

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a very sort of an sop of always inviting them

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to provide their thoughts and feedback on how the company

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is operating. Not feedback really about, you know, how top

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management operates, but their insights about how we're doing, what

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we could do better as an organization, and in some

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cases asking their opinions about how that country that they

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work in or that manufacturing plant could be could be improved.

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But you made a point of always telling them that,

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you know, they can check the record. There's never been

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anyone who was fired or demoted because of something they said.

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And we kept those conversations confidential, but they were really valuable,

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and you know, the word of mouth was terrific because

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of course, for every you know, ten people that were

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in the room, there were probably another couple thousand that

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heard about it. And you know, that type of session,

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just the fact that it occurred is really incredibly valuable.

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But how you run those meetings is really important. And

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I'm working on another book where I learned a few

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things from Mary Bera, the CEO of General Motors, and

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she seems to have a really astonishing capability of getting

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into a room with people at the working level, and

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rather than telling them what she thinks about things, or

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just taking Q and a about, you know, where the

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company is going and what it should be doing, she

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always asks, as I understand it shows, ask what's the

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biggest problem that you see us facing right now? Whatever

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that may be in your field of work. I mean,

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not trying to come up with cosmic problems, but problems

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that are getting the way of us succeeding in the

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area that you're in. And then they spend the rest

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of that time working with her on what could be

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done about it, and she'll then always circle back to

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ask how could she help them with what they're trying

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to achieve and what is that? How are we doing

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on solving that problem? And you know, it's both a

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symbolically really important thing and also practically because that does

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actually get things to happen.

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Celtics kind of leader that most of the would like

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to work for.

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Yeah, I think so. I mean, you know, I'm sure

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she's got her issues, but on that front, from what

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I can tell, really effective in a huge organization like that.

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Of course, she's not going to talk to more than

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a fraction of the employees any one year, but by

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doing it in a purposeful way like that, I think again,

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the word of mouth must be terrific.

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Mm hmm, indeed not know. Let's grab our first break.

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I'm your host, Doctor Release Cortez. We're on the air

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with Ken Banta. He's the CEO of the Vanguard Network,

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a unique organization that brings experienced, dynamic top executives together

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for unfettered, uncensored, and highly interactive exchanges around leadership. We've

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been talking about some of the topics and the people

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that he's featured in this book. After the break, we're

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going to we're going to tackle on leading with purpose

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and also culture. Will be right back.

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Doctor Elise Cortes is a management consultant specializing in meaning

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and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author. She helps companies

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visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired

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leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and

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commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite

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Elise to speak to your organization, please visit her at

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Elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get your

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employees working on purpose. This is working on purpose with

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doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or to

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open a conversation with Elise, send an email to Elise A.

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Lisee at Elisecortes dot com. Now back to Working on Purpose.

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Thanks for stating with us, and welcome back to Working

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on Purpose. I'm your host, doctor Elise Cortes. As I

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too embedk to help create a world or organizations thrive

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because they're people thrive and they're led by inspiritual leaders

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that help them find and contribute their greatness, and we

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do business that betters the world. I keep researching and

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writing my own books. So one of my latest came

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out called The Great Revitalization, How activating meaning and purpose

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can radically in liven your business. And I wrote it

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to really help today's leaders understand the diverse and discerning workforce.

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What do they want in need to be able to

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give you their best and want to stay. And then

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I offer twenty two best projects to equip you to

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provide that for them through your leadership and your culture.

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You can find my books on Amazon or my personal

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site at least coorretest dot com. If you are just

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joining us. My guest is Ken Banta. He's the author

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of Seeing Around Corners, Wisdom from America's Insightful Leaders. So

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I would be completely remiss ken if we didn't talk

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about leading with purpose, and I wouldn't I I couldn't

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let I let you off the show without that. And

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I appreciated the contribution by doctor Jeremy Levin, the CEO

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of is it OVID Therapeutics OVID Therapeutical Therapeutics. Essentially the

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gist that I got from, and if you wanted to

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comment or expand, was that today today our society is

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driven by meaning and purpose. They want it, and of

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course what they really want and their organizations and their

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leaders is to make sure that that they walk that

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talk it's actually real.

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Yes, I think Jeremy is a terrific CEO, and I've

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known them for some time. I think that the concept

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of leading with purposes is very important. It is probably

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important that would also say to put in front of

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the word purpose, sort of meaningful and ethical purpose, because

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you can lead with purpose but down the wrong road,

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and you know, you see that all the time in

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companies as well as countries, and so I do think

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that's important, just like the concept of leadership is in

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itself not a it's a value free concept. It can

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be very negative or very positive. So when people talk about,

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you know, inspiring leadership, I think it's often important to

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sort of reflect on exactly what are you talking about?

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You know, is it leader ship that's leading to a

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better place or is it leadership that's leading to a

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darker place. So that said to I think it's it's

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really again one of those roles that only a senior

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leader and probably the top leader in an organization can

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do is to help establish what that purpose is. They

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ought to do it in consultation with others, including the

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people at the working level, but ultimately it's that's one

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of the I think the most important jobs of a

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of a of a CEO, or a leader of an organization,

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even a leader of a you know, of a of

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a photo club or anything else. They need to They

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need to help convey why why we exist essentially and

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what we're going to if we do what we do,

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what what are we going to deliver? And it's usually

402
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more complicated than you think.

403
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I completely agree. We love doing that work ourselves. Yeah,

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And the other thing that I would add to that

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that I think is so powerful and that many organizations

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are missing is once they have in conjunction with their

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with their with their people articulated and defined that the

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purpose is that they then help enroll and align their

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employees to that purpose through their values. Do that right?

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And now?

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Yeah? Absolutely? And the other thing I think that I

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think you'd probably share on this viewpoint as well, is

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that it's not enough to have this attack to the wall,

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which is what often happens nothing else occurs. You've really

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got to then figure out how you're going to operationalize it.

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And so that's a huge task and it's not enough,

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I think, to simply kind of so called walk the

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talk on that when you've got to figure out how

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it's actually going to get transmitted and really in some

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way instilled into the DNA of the organization. And there

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are a lot of different ways to do it, but

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it really requires a lot of kind of tenacity and

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also sort of inspiration in terms of how to make

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that stick. And again I think you know, for every

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person who leads an organization that does that, they're probably

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ten or twenty that don't, and I think that's unfortunate.

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Same thing goes for branding. I have a very good

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friend who runs Straight Line, a global branding company. His

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name is Michael Watris, and I think he finds it

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sometimes quite disappointing that the really terrific branding work that

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they do, that you know, captures where the organization ought

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to be and how it should be seen, doesn't always

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get translated into action and they can't control that. But

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I think it's, uh, you know, it's it's unfortunate when

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that doesn't happen. On the other hand, when you do

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have terrific branding of the kind that they generate and

437
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it does get really picked up and and and and

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embedded in the in the in the DNA, you know,

439
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then you have a really powerful, powerful impact.

440
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Agreed. And you know, I over the years have had

441
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so many fantastic guests that have contributed and expanded my knowledge

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and the way that we practice and are consulting around that.

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And doctor carlosre At of Barcelona really has some great

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work around helping to really operationalized purpose around the head,

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art and the hands as you do that. And you literally,

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I love your word operationalized. We use that too. You

447
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really can oragialized purpose throughout the organization. And here's the

448
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cool thing, you can actually measure how purposes lived through

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those three aspects. So you do that, now you know

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where the problem is and where you need to address

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it in the organization.

452
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That's terrific. And you know, the other thing that I'm

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sure we've both seen is how important it is to

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have the purpose really be genuine. In other words, there

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are organizations that you know, sort of manufacture a sense

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of direction or purpose that isn't really believable, and I

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think that actually causes more harm than having none at all,

458
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you know, and I'm really thinking of, you know, examples

459
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where I'm not thinking of a specific law firm, but

460
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you know, you can always imagine a law firm that

461
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says that, you know what, we are the best possible vendor,

462
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not even vendors, but we've gone from being a vendor

463
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to a peer advisor to our clients. And you know,

464
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if that doesn't resonate with the people in the organization,

465
00:23:56.279 --> 00:24:00.000
which it probably wouldn't, you then really sort of undermine

466
00:24:00.039 --> 00:24:05.039
and your external credibility, but you've also undermined your internal cohesion.

467
00:24:05.559 --> 00:24:08.839
Mm hmm. Yeah. I've actually had interviews with with with

468
00:24:08.920 --> 00:24:12.599
employees who were part of oorizations, who whose purpose was

469
00:24:12.680 --> 00:24:14.839
not being lived. In fact, just the opposite was it was.

470
00:24:14.880 --> 00:24:18.480
It's incredibly debilitating for people. And then back to your

471
00:24:18.480 --> 00:24:20.720
point too about it not being clear. When I was

472
00:24:20.759 --> 00:24:24.839
speaking at the HR Southwest conference, I did a workshop

473
00:24:24.880 --> 00:24:27.799
as well on helping that participants on just what we've

474
00:24:27.799 --> 00:24:29.680
been talking about here, how to be able to detect

475
00:24:29.680 --> 00:24:32.759
and embed this better purpose into your culture etctera, And

476
00:24:32.799 --> 00:24:35.759
there were sobody in there who struggling, And I said, well,

477
00:24:35.759 --> 00:24:37.680
what's what's the purpose of your company? And she said,

478
00:24:37.680 --> 00:24:42.119
to provide great customer service? And I said, what's the

479
00:24:42.160 --> 00:24:44.599
name of company? What was it that you actually do?

480
00:24:45.240 --> 00:24:48.119
And she said, we provide warranties. And I said, well,

481
00:24:48.200 --> 00:24:50.880
I think that you have a value on customer service,

482
00:24:50.920 --> 00:24:53.839
but your purpose is to provide peace of mind? Yes

483
00:24:54.079 --> 00:24:56.359
she said, and she said, I we don't think about

484
00:24:56.359 --> 00:24:58.000
it that way. So like that would be a real

485
00:24:58.039 --> 00:24:59.920
opportunity to start to turn on some of the soul

486
00:25:00.039 --> 00:25:03.640
in that organization who maybe can get excited about just

487
00:25:03.720 --> 00:25:06.559
great customer service, but can get and get behind the

488
00:25:06.599 --> 00:25:08.440
idea and helping people sleep better at night.

489
00:25:09.480 --> 00:25:13.519
Yes, and potentially much more real as well. And you know,

490
00:25:13.559 --> 00:25:16.599
again I think back to the front line people. They

491
00:25:16.680 --> 00:25:19.319
usually I wouldn't say they always know best, but they

492
00:25:19.319 --> 00:25:23.119
know at least as well as top management what things

493
00:25:23.160 --> 00:25:24.920
like that should be and what will resonate, you know,

494
00:25:24.960 --> 00:25:28.400
not only with themselves, but with the people that they contact,

495
00:25:28.480 --> 00:25:31.920
who are the customers of the organization or the stakeholders.

496
00:25:32.279 --> 00:25:36.319
And so it seems to me as a bit bizarre

497
00:25:36.319 --> 00:25:39.319
really when you hear about purpose statements or other things

498
00:25:39.359 --> 00:25:43.200
being created either in a vacuum or being created by

499
00:25:43.200 --> 00:25:46.720
an external agency together with the senior management team. Right

500
00:25:46.799 --> 00:25:48.960
at some point there's a missing link here which is

501
00:25:48.960 --> 00:25:51.680
everybody else. And that'll help you, you know, not only

502
00:25:51.799 --> 00:25:53.440
will you get buy in, but of course you'll get

503
00:25:53.519 --> 00:25:56.000
you know, you'll get mid course correction because people will

504
00:25:56.000 --> 00:25:58.599
say who actually are in the warranty side of things?

505
00:25:58.599 --> 00:26:00.920
They will say, well, we aren't. We don't do customer service.

506
00:26:00.920 --> 00:26:04.079
We do peace of mind. And that's the message that

507
00:26:04.119 --> 00:26:05.039
should be heard at the top.

508
00:26:06.039 --> 00:26:08.960
Indeed, so much that we can talk about it here,

509
00:26:09.160 --> 00:26:12.000
I appreciate getting to talk with someone who's been involved

510
00:26:12.039 --> 00:26:14.559
with so many organizations and turnarounds and transformations and really

511
00:26:14.640 --> 00:26:17.880
understands the value of this. Let's move on, since I

512
00:26:17.880 --> 00:26:19.519
think we've done a pretty good job of dealing with

513
00:26:19.559 --> 00:26:24.319
the culture and that conversation. Let's talk about innovation. I

514
00:26:24.359 --> 00:26:27.400
think you have one of your remarks on there I

515
00:26:27.440 --> 00:26:31.039
grabbed here. You say that I think strategy is somewhat overrated.

516
00:26:31.079 --> 00:26:33.640
The world is changing too quickly at having a three

517
00:26:33.680 --> 00:26:36.759
year strategy is sometimes meaningless. Having a sense of purpose

518
00:26:36.799 --> 00:26:40.400
and where you're going with your organization and then being

519
00:26:40.480 --> 00:26:43.359
very agile about how you get there, and especially making

520
00:26:43.440 --> 00:26:45.960
sure that the people in the organization understand what the

521
00:26:46.000 --> 00:26:48.319
purpose is and that you can get there. So kind

522
00:26:48.319 --> 00:26:50.000
of related to what we've been talking about here, But

523
00:26:50.119 --> 00:26:52.880
now I think it's really interesting to focus that whole

524
00:26:52.880 --> 00:26:55.000
conversation on innovation if you want to add a little

525
00:26:55.039 --> 00:26:55.799
more color to that.

526
00:26:57.519 --> 00:27:01.720
Sure, I think what I've observed, both in inside companies

527
00:27:01.720 --> 00:27:05.599
and then working with executives on their companies, is that

528
00:27:06.079 --> 00:27:10.880
the whole concept of innovation sometimes can be First of all,

529
00:27:10.920 --> 00:27:13.359
you know, very narrow people think of innovation as something

530
00:27:13.400 --> 00:27:15.839
that happens in a lab or with some sort of

531
00:27:15.880 --> 00:27:19.039
scientific endeavor. But what you know, I've seen is that

532
00:27:19.119 --> 00:27:22.960
innovation can happen, you know, in the administrative assistant role.

533
00:27:23.000 --> 00:27:26.079
There can be innovation in sales and marketing. There can

534
00:27:26.119 --> 00:27:29.440
be innovation also in the role of senior management and

535
00:27:29.480 --> 00:27:31.440
how they interact with people or how they do their job.

536
00:27:31.519 --> 00:27:34.039
So I think innovation is you know, there's lots of

537
00:27:34.039 --> 00:27:35.799
different ways of defining it, but I think, you know,

538
00:27:35.839 --> 00:27:38.559
one way that I've heard that resonates with me is

539
00:27:38.599 --> 00:27:42.480
it's a way of doing things better and more and

540
00:27:42.599 --> 00:27:45.880
better and faster and differently. And so you know, if

541
00:27:45.880 --> 00:27:47.960
you think of those criteria, then an awful lot of

542
00:27:48.000 --> 00:27:50.680
things are innovation. And also a lot of things that

543
00:27:50.839 --> 00:27:54.240
organizations do or not innovation. And sometimes that's the problem

544
00:27:54.319 --> 00:27:57.079
is that they're not you know, thinking around the corners,

545
00:27:57.119 --> 00:27:59.759
and they're not looking at the way the environment is

546
00:27:59.799 --> 00:28:03.599
changedging there's uh you know, I think that especially in

547
00:28:03.640 --> 00:28:07.839
a time of intense uh change, which I think we're

548
00:28:07.880 --> 00:28:11.720
in currently, you know, change environments I think go like waves.

549
00:28:11.759 --> 00:28:13.359
You know, there's not there's change all the time, but

550
00:28:13.400 --> 00:28:17.839
then they're increasing uh waves and pressures that arise, and

551
00:28:17.839 --> 00:28:19.359
I think, you know, we're in one of those now

552
00:28:19.400 --> 00:28:22.480
for sure, on lots of fronts. That's the time when

553
00:28:22.519 --> 00:28:25.839
innovation becomes even more essential because you've got to be

554
00:28:25.880 --> 00:28:29.160
able to uh, you know, move agilely and come up

555
00:28:29.160 --> 00:28:31.920
with new ways to do things, new ways to get

556
00:28:31.960 --> 00:28:35.880
to where you're going. And in that element, I think

557
00:28:36.480 --> 00:28:39.039
it's not that strategy is a bad idea, but I

558
00:28:39.039 --> 00:28:41.759
think it can get overrated because people talk about sticking

559
00:28:41.799 --> 00:28:44.119
to their strategy when really perhaps they need to be

560
00:28:44.160 --> 00:28:46.519
sticking to their to their goal and then how they

561
00:28:46.559 --> 00:28:49.519
get there is going to change possibly by the day. Yeah,

562
00:28:49.720 --> 00:28:52.720
very you know, you need the agility, you need the adaptability,

563
00:28:52.759 --> 00:28:55.880
and I think that's something that you know, and nimbleness

564
00:28:55.880 --> 00:28:58.079
and that those are things that you know. If you

565
00:28:58.079 --> 00:28:59.720
look at strategy in the wrong way, it becomes kind

566
00:28:59.720 --> 00:29:01.839
of a jacket. Well, you know, we said we were

567
00:29:01.839 --> 00:29:03.319
going to do it, and we have a five year plan,

568
00:29:03.400 --> 00:29:04.799
so we're going to do things for the next five

569
00:29:04.880 --> 00:29:07.480
years just like that. But if the five year plan

570
00:29:07.559 --> 00:29:10.359
is to actually be add and adaptive, then you know,

571
00:29:10.400 --> 00:29:11.640
that's a different kind of strategy.

572
00:29:14.000 --> 00:29:16.559
Just so much in this conversation, Kim so so happy

573
00:29:16.599 --> 00:29:20.200
to meet you, cross paths, learn from you, connect with you.

574
00:29:20.200 --> 00:29:23.720
You have a contributor in your book named Gina Cox,

575
00:29:23.720 --> 00:29:27.200
who's an organizational psychologist and the author of Leading Inclusion,

576
00:29:27.640 --> 00:29:32.240
and I appreciated her perspective on the real value of diversity,

577
00:29:32.319 --> 00:29:34.559
and specifically, what she was saying that I could really

578
00:29:34.599 --> 00:29:39.359
really get behind is that people what they really want

579
00:29:39.039 --> 00:29:41.359
they don't want but belonging per se, they don't want

580
00:29:41.400 --> 00:29:44.640
diversity per se. What they want is respect. And that

581
00:29:44.799 --> 00:29:46.960
made a lot of sense to me. That resonates with me.

582
00:29:48.799 --> 00:29:51.440
Yes, I think very highly of Jenna. I think that

583
00:29:51.880 --> 00:29:54.279
another way of thinking about diversity as well is that's

584
00:29:54.880 --> 00:29:58.920
what really matters is something that's connected to innovation, which

585
00:29:58.960 --> 00:30:02.640
is diversity of ideas and experiences, and that's not really

586
00:30:02.720 --> 00:30:05.119
based on you know, quotas of people of a certain

587
00:30:05.200 --> 00:30:08.519
color or a certain gender or other things. Those If

588
00:30:08.599 --> 00:30:11.519
you pursue the goal of diversity of thought and experience,

589
00:30:11.559 --> 00:30:13.279
then you'll get those other things as a result of it.

590
00:30:13.359 --> 00:30:15.839
But that's, in my mind, shouldn't be the driver. And

591
00:30:15.880 --> 00:30:19.920
so I do understand the discomfort some people have with

592
00:30:19.960 --> 00:30:22.359
what appear to be quotas for different things. And in fact,

593
00:30:22.400 --> 00:30:24.559
Jena it's a good, good example someone who really doesn't

594
00:30:25.079 --> 00:30:27.680
go for that type of approach at all. She's much

595
00:30:27.680 --> 00:30:32.200
more nuanced about what diversity really is. And as you said,

596
00:30:32.240 --> 00:30:34.680
part of it is that sense of people being respected,

597
00:30:34.720 --> 00:30:37.880
and in my mind, another piece of genuine diversity is

598
00:30:37.880 --> 00:30:41.160
that diversity of ideas and diversity of experience, which will

599
00:30:41.200 --> 00:30:43.519
then lead to other types of diversity, but not the

600
00:30:43.559 --> 00:30:45.519
other way around. And you know, so you're not are

601
00:30:45.519 --> 00:30:48.920
you going to get a more diverse and innovative organization

602
00:30:49.000 --> 00:30:52.519
by simply hiring, you know, fifty percent more people of

603
00:30:52.559 --> 00:30:56.519
a certain background. No, But if you aim to diversify

604
00:30:56.599 --> 00:30:58.960
the inputs into the organization, the other part of it

605
00:30:59.000 --> 00:30:59.400
will follow.

606
00:31:02.000 --> 00:31:05.319
I love that amazing. I can't argue with that at all. Again,

607
00:31:05.400 --> 00:31:08.839
another sort of fresh take on the matter. I appreciate

608
00:31:08.880 --> 00:31:12.480
that very much. Ken. Let's talk just a little bit

609
00:31:12.480 --> 00:31:15.240
about the on the role of General Counsel. I have

610
00:31:15.319 --> 00:31:18.720
to say I was very taken by surprise when Greg

611
00:31:18.839 --> 00:31:22.640
Baker of the General councilor for a Giant Eagle, says

612
00:31:22.680 --> 00:31:26.720
that he says, I think that he's talking about the

613
00:31:26.839 --> 00:31:30.559
role of that of General Council as the conscience of

614
00:31:30.599 --> 00:31:33.000
the company. I have never been seen it. I've never

615
00:31:33.000 --> 00:31:36.559
thought about it that way. Ever. Perspective on the role

616
00:31:36.640 --> 00:31:39.000
of General Council, especially as a conscience.

617
00:31:39.680 --> 00:31:42.519
Well, one thing for sure, I think is that the

618
00:31:43.279 --> 00:31:46.599
role of the GC has grown overall in lots of

619
00:31:46.640 --> 00:31:50.200
different directions over the last five or six years and

620
00:31:50.319 --> 00:31:53.519
probably even beyond that, but certainly those this last five

621
00:31:53.559 --> 00:31:59.519
to six year period. It's certainly never restricted to being

622
00:31:59.519 --> 00:32:03.480
the chiefly officer. But I think now more than ever before,

623
00:32:03.880 --> 00:32:06.519
the GC is is someone who plays a strategic role

624
00:32:06.519 --> 00:32:11.319
in the organization and a role as a advisor and

625
00:32:11.480 --> 00:32:14.519
as a as a as a business decision maker for

626
00:32:14.559 --> 00:32:16.720
the organization. It used to be said that gcs would

627
00:32:16.720 --> 00:32:20.319
be a business partner, meaning they kind of supplied some

628
00:32:20.400 --> 00:32:23.519
form of support to the functions that brought in the

629
00:32:23.599 --> 00:32:25.759
income or did other stuff, But I think that view

630
00:32:25.839 --> 00:32:28.440
is now becoming a bit outdated, and really the GC

631
00:32:28.640 --> 00:32:31.960
is a co leader of the business. That idea of

632
00:32:31.960 --> 00:32:34.799
being a conscience for the business is absolutely right. I

633
00:32:34.799 --> 00:32:37.240
think they play it a very important role of sort

634
00:32:37.279 --> 00:32:40.720
of identifying what the moral compass of the organization should

635
00:32:40.720 --> 00:32:43.440
be and to you know, call out things that are

636
00:32:43.599 --> 00:32:46.480
being done in a way that is not appropriate. And

637
00:32:47.200 --> 00:32:50.279
there's a couple of gcs I know who have said that.

638
00:32:50.359 --> 00:32:53.960
You know, they've often had some very uncomfortable conversations with

639
00:32:54.000 --> 00:32:57.480
their CEO about behavior of either the CEO or the

640
00:32:57.519 --> 00:33:00.839
board or the leadership team because they felt that they

641
00:33:00.839 --> 00:33:03.240
were bordering on doing things that were not as ethical

642
00:33:03.240 --> 00:33:05.440
as they would want. And you know, usually those things

643
00:33:05.440 --> 00:33:07.920
weren't being done on purpose. They kind of fell into it.

644
00:33:07.960 --> 00:33:10.160
But that was the role of the GC to close

645
00:33:10.200 --> 00:33:11.599
the door and say, you know, I really have to

646
00:33:11.640 --> 00:33:14.079
tell you that that's not the way things should be done.

647
00:33:14.319 --> 00:33:19.240
So that's one aspect of that GC role. Another very

648
00:33:19.480 --> 00:33:21.799
important aspect of it is more and more, i think,

649
00:33:22.079 --> 00:33:27.559
providing a kind of strong direction to even the commercial

650
00:33:27.599 --> 00:33:32.000
elements of the business. And very interesting. A guy who's

651
00:33:32.240 --> 00:33:38.200
one of the really most tenured gcs named Tom Savatino,

652
00:33:38.279 --> 00:33:41.759
who's i think just finished his ninth role as a

653
00:33:41.799 --> 00:33:45.079
general counsel, which is probably at nine times more than

654
00:33:45.119 --> 00:33:51.440
most gcs, said that his approach to working with business

655
00:33:51.519 --> 00:33:55.759
leaders in business is to not come in with direction

656
00:33:55.880 --> 00:33:58.839
or guidance, but to ask questions. And he said, by

657
00:33:58.880 --> 00:34:01.599
asking the right questions, you can get people to rethink

658
00:34:01.599 --> 00:34:05.279
what they're doing and you can help to redirect the decisions.

659
00:34:05.559 --> 00:34:07.880
But the way to do it is by asking questions.

660
00:34:07.880 --> 00:34:09.880
Because as a GC, you come in with you know,

661
00:34:10.119 --> 00:34:14.360
zero street credibility necessarily as a business operator and you

662
00:34:14.440 --> 00:34:17.360
have no real authority over the decisions that these groups

663
00:34:17.400 --> 00:34:19.920
are making. But you know, he pointed out that if

664
00:34:19.960 --> 00:34:22.239
you approach in the right way, you have tremendous impact

665
00:34:22.639 --> 00:34:24.800
by by asking the right questions.

666
00:34:26.679 --> 00:34:30.679
Tremendous ask Rubbert. Our last break here, Ken, I'm I'm

667
00:34:30.719 --> 00:34:32.599
your host, Doctor e releas core Test. We only air

668
00:34:32.639 --> 00:34:35.360
with Ken Banta. He's the CEO of the Vanguard Network,

669
00:34:35.400 --> 00:34:39.559
a unique organization that brings experienced, dynamic top executives together

670
00:34:39.639 --> 00:34:43.920
for unfettered, uncensored, and highly interactive exchanges around leadership. We've

671
00:34:43.920 --> 00:34:46.159
been talking about some of the key aspects of the

672
00:34:46.159 --> 00:34:50.039
book that especially appealed to me and how this show works.

673
00:34:50.480 --> 00:34:52.760
After the break, we're going to cover off on environmental

674
00:34:52.760 --> 00:34:55.599
and social impact as well as work life balance, among

675
00:34:55.599 --> 00:34:56.840
other matters. We'll be right back.

676
00:35:12.440 --> 00:35:16.000
Doctor Elise Cortes is a management consultant specializing in meaning

677
00:35:16.039 --> 00:35:19.880
and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author, she helps companies

678
00:35:19.960 --> 00:35:23.760
visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired

679
00:35:23.840 --> 00:35:27.800
leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and

680
00:35:27.880 --> 00:35:31.079
commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite

681
00:35:31.079 --> 00:35:33.840
a lease to speak to your organization, please visit her

682
00:35:33.920 --> 00:35:37.159
at elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get

683
00:35:37.199 --> 00:35:45.960
your employees working on purpose. This is Working on Purpose

684
00:35:46.079 --> 00:35:49.360
with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or

685
00:35:49.400 --> 00:35:52.159
to open a conversation with Elise, send an email to

686
00:35:52.239 --> 00:35:57.639
Elise A. L Se at elisecortes dot com. Now back

687
00:35:57.679 --> 00:35:59.000
to working on Purpose.

688
00:36:03.960 --> 00:36:05.719
Thanks for staying with us, and welcome back to Working

689
00:36:05.800 --> 00:36:08.400
on Purpose. I'm your host, doctor Elise Cortez. As you

690
00:36:08.440 --> 00:36:10.639
know by now, this program is dedicated to empowering and

691
00:36:10.679 --> 00:36:13.480
inspiring you along your journey to realize more of your potential.

692
00:36:13.840 --> 00:36:15.039
If you want to learn more how we can work

693
00:36:15.079 --> 00:36:17.639
together and what we offer at the gust Now Academy,

694
00:36:17.719 --> 00:36:21.039
you can go to Gusto dashnow dot com and then

695
00:36:21.079 --> 00:36:22.840
go to the training tab and you'll find the information

696
00:36:23.000 --> 00:36:25.360
there if you're just now joining us. My guest is

697
00:36:25.440 --> 00:36:28.119
Ken Banta. He's the author of Seeing Around Corners c

698
00:36:28.280 --> 00:36:32.559
See Wisdom from America's Insightful Leaders. So I realized we're

699
00:36:32.559 --> 00:36:34.639
moving fast through with this conversation. I do want to

700
00:36:34.679 --> 00:36:36.719
move on to I think let's go straight to work

701
00:36:36.760 --> 00:36:41.800
life balance. I really liked the entry and here from

702
00:36:42.159 --> 00:36:46.440
let's see James Harrington, who's the chief Global Intellectual Property

703
00:36:46.440 --> 00:36:49.559
Council for Radius Health. I like how he essentially is

704
00:36:49.599 --> 00:36:52.079
talking about leading by example. So what that means is

705
00:36:52.800 --> 00:36:55.719
that if he in his case, do you have somebody

706
00:36:55.760 --> 00:36:57.840
that you want us to get to a game or

707
00:36:57.840 --> 00:37:00.239
a soccer game, and you want to show that I'm

708
00:37:00.239 --> 00:37:02.079
going to this, I'm leading the office and I'm going

709
00:37:02.119 --> 00:37:05.280
to go see my son soccer game. Just showing that

710
00:37:05.400 --> 00:37:06.840
is a way to be able to cascad it through

711
00:37:06.840 --> 00:37:09.079
the organization. So I thought that was very powerful. Is

712
00:37:09.880 --> 00:37:12.159
leading work life balance by modeling it?

713
00:37:14.159 --> 00:37:17.840
I think it's very important. And of course, in today's

714
00:37:18.079 --> 00:37:23.760
environment where everyone can work remotely from anywhere, it can

715
00:37:24.079 --> 00:37:26.840
on one hand, enable a lot of flexibility in your

716
00:37:26.880 --> 00:37:31.239
working environment and balance between work and other things. And

717
00:37:31.280 --> 00:37:32.800
on the other hand, it can cause you to be

718
00:37:32.840 --> 00:37:35.000
working all the time no matter where you are, and

719
00:37:35.079 --> 00:37:37.840
so I think it does take a lot of I

720
00:37:37.880 --> 00:37:41.000
think a lot of discipline in fact, to find the

721
00:37:41.079 --> 00:37:44.760
right way to stop doing that and going on to

722
00:37:44.840 --> 00:37:48.719
other things. Especially important, I think if you're a very

723
00:37:48.760 --> 00:37:52.119
senior person in an organization, because your behavior is what

724
00:37:52.159 --> 00:37:54.719
other people will model, and if the head of the

725
00:37:54.800 --> 00:37:58.719
unit or the head of the organization is sending out

726
00:37:59.320 --> 00:38:02.400
emails all day and night. Other people feel like they

727
00:38:02.480 --> 00:38:05.800
have to do that as well. And I'm certainly, really

728
00:38:05.840 --> 00:38:08.880
quite often guilty of doing that, and I've realized that

729
00:38:08.920 --> 00:38:11.639
I've got to, you know, for example, do simple things

730
00:38:11.679 --> 00:38:14.440
like put a new time on the delivery for something

731
00:38:14.480 --> 00:38:16.239
that I may be working on later in the day.

732
00:38:16.920 --> 00:38:19.119
There's no reason for it to go out at eight pm.

733
00:38:19.440 --> 00:38:21.800
It can go out at eight thirty am. And I'm

734
00:38:21.800 --> 00:38:24.239
not always good at remembering that. But that's one of

735
00:38:24.280 --> 00:38:28.039
those important things that I think people need to do.

736
00:38:28.119 --> 00:38:33.599
And on the other hand, it's interesting that in some

737
00:38:33.719 --> 00:38:37.840
organizations people will find it worrying if the especially if

738
00:38:37.840 --> 00:38:40.440
the C for example, is really working nine to five.

739
00:38:40.519 --> 00:38:44.159
They really do expect them to be working longer than that.

740
00:38:45.199 --> 00:38:48.480
So I think sometimes it's partly it's behavior, and sometimes

741
00:38:48.480 --> 00:38:51.360
it's being really quite transparent about what's going on, you know,

742
00:38:51.440 --> 00:38:54.000
to the tune of you know, as CEO, I do

743
00:38:54.079 --> 00:38:55.920
have to work on the weekend, and I am going

744
00:38:55.960 --> 00:38:57.840
to do that, but you do not have to do that,

745
00:38:57.880 --> 00:39:00.880
and I don't expect you. And that's before honest than

746
00:39:01.119 --> 00:39:03.599
saying everyone around here is going to work only you

747
00:39:03.599 --> 00:39:06.519
know their tools will drop at five pm because people

748
00:39:06.519 --> 00:39:09.400
will see that you didn't do that. On the other hand,

749
00:39:09.400 --> 00:39:12.920
if you're quite transparent about why you in a particular

750
00:39:13.000 --> 00:39:15.519
role need to work even different hours, perhaps maybe you're

751
00:39:15.559 --> 00:39:17.400
going to not be visible, you know, from two to

752
00:39:17.400 --> 00:39:19.119
four in the afternoon because you're doing something else, but

753
00:39:19.159 --> 00:39:22.920
you will be working from eight to ten by especially

754
00:39:22.960 --> 00:39:26.360
if you're someone who's in a lead leadership role, it

755
00:39:26.400 --> 00:39:30.000
can often be just very effective to explain that context.

756
00:39:30.119 --> 00:39:34.400
And that's not quite role modeling, it's kind of role explaining.

757
00:39:35.159 --> 00:39:38.079
I like that, especially you know that situating that, hey,

758
00:39:38.400 --> 00:39:39.880
part of my job is to work on the weekend.

759
00:39:39.920 --> 00:39:41.639
That's what I signed up for. But if we're not

760
00:39:41.719 --> 00:39:44.679
saying it's yours, I think that's that's very very powerful,

761
00:39:44.719 --> 00:39:47.599
and not just once saying that, but that's an ongoing

762
00:39:48.000 --> 00:39:49.960
discussion or part of the conversation. That makes a lot

763
00:39:50.000 --> 00:39:50.519
of sense to me.

764
00:39:50.840 --> 00:39:54.880
Yeah, and probably I've seen some very good senior leaders

765
00:39:55.400 --> 00:39:57.760
call people out in a really nice fashion, you know,

766
00:39:57.840 --> 00:40:00.400
good fashion of saying, well, I just sort of saw

767
00:40:00.480 --> 00:40:03.760
you sending me an email on Saturday. And while I

768
00:40:03.800 --> 00:40:05.760
may send out emails on Saturday, I really don't want

769
00:40:05.800 --> 00:40:09.519
to see one from you and not sending a that's

770
00:40:09.519 --> 00:40:12.559
set in a much more of a kind of supportive

771
00:40:12.599 --> 00:40:16.199
fashion than angry. It's just saying, you know, I really

772
00:40:16.239 --> 00:40:18.559
want to make sure that people in your kind of

773
00:40:18.599 --> 00:40:21.840
role don't feel compelled to send me emails on Saturday,

774
00:40:21.880 --> 00:40:22.920
even if I sent one to you.

775
00:40:25.559 --> 00:40:28.440
Moving on now to a really critical topic that's near

776
00:40:28.480 --> 00:40:30.039
dear to our heart as well, and that's the idea

777
00:40:30.079 --> 00:40:33.039
of empowering people. What we know, of course, is we

778
00:40:33.079 --> 00:40:35.320
look at the global and employee engagement rate, it's twenty

779
00:40:35.320 --> 00:40:37.559
one percent. In the US it's thirty one percent. There

780
00:40:37.639 --> 00:40:39.920
is a reason for that, and there are a lot

781
00:40:39.960 --> 00:40:45.239
of organizations that really swash the drive the initiative of

782
00:40:45.280 --> 00:40:48.840
people and don't empower them. And you have several interest

783
00:40:49.320 --> 00:40:52.119
in your chapter on this, and I could go into one,

784
00:40:52.159 --> 00:40:54.599
but I would just start. I'd love to start with

785
00:40:54.639 --> 00:40:58.360
your perspective on how to empower people and why it's important.

786
00:41:00.039 --> 00:41:05.000
Well, I think that it's important in certain respects for

787
00:41:05.079 --> 00:41:07.800
people to feel like they have value in what they're

788
00:41:08.000 --> 00:41:11.599
doing and feel like they are working in a way

789
00:41:11.639 --> 00:41:14.719
that they can go home and tell people was meaningful.

790
00:41:15.079 --> 00:41:18.440
So Wes Adam So I think you had on the show,

791
00:41:19.480 --> 00:41:22.719
has written an entire book on meaningful work, and so

792
00:41:22.760 --> 00:41:25.760
I think empowerment is either a subset of that or

793
00:41:25.840 --> 00:41:29.920
the other way around. But I think that's very, very important.

794
00:41:30.480 --> 00:41:34.920
So that's why empowerment is important to the individuals. On

795
00:41:34.960 --> 00:41:37.320
the other hand, and it may or may not be

796
00:41:37.360 --> 00:41:41.760
the right word, you know, empowerment sometimes conveys certain control

797
00:41:41.840 --> 00:41:44.679
over things which people may not actually feel or have,

798
00:41:44.840 --> 00:41:47.119
So it may be that sometimes there needs to be

799
00:41:47.320 --> 00:41:49.960
different kind of nomenclature. And while in our book we

800
00:41:49.960 --> 00:41:52.800
talk about empowerment, it may be that, you know, what

801
00:41:52.840 --> 00:41:55.480
Wes has talked about about meaning and work might be

802
00:41:55.519 --> 00:41:59.760
even more sort of universal, because you can have meaningful

803
00:41:59.760 --> 00:42:01.280
work even if you don't have a lot of power

804
00:42:01.320 --> 00:42:05.760
over it. If you, for example, are working in a

805
00:42:05.840 --> 00:42:10.199
nonprofit that does great things for people, your role is

806
00:42:10.719 --> 00:42:13.880
as a assistant to somebody. You may not have a

807
00:42:13.920 --> 00:42:16.960
lot of power literally over the environment that you're in,

808
00:42:17.000 --> 00:42:19.719
but you have a tremendous amount of meaning to what

809
00:42:19.760 --> 00:42:22.320
you're doing, and that may be the thing that makes

810
00:42:22.519 --> 00:42:24.159
you feel like you want to come back the next

811
00:42:24.239 --> 00:42:26.440
day and get up in the morning. So there's I

812
00:42:26.440 --> 00:42:30.559
guess the nomenclature is important, the words. The other aspect

813
00:42:30.599 --> 00:42:34.400
of empowerment or meaning in work is, of course, you know,

814
00:42:34.559 --> 00:42:37.440
it does generate better work. So if you're a person

815
00:42:37.519 --> 00:42:40.239
running an organization, whether it's a for profit or nonprofit

816
00:42:40.360 --> 00:42:43.920
or something else, you know, it really does literally, you know,

817
00:42:43.960 --> 00:42:47.400
pay off to have people who feel like this is worthwhile,

818
00:42:47.519 --> 00:42:49.079
so you have a kind of it's one of those

819
00:42:49.079 --> 00:42:50.639
things where you should be able to have a virtuous

820
00:42:50.639 --> 00:42:54.320
circle where people feel like what they're doing is really meaningful,

821
00:42:54.719 --> 00:42:57.599
and in turn they do better work because they feel

822
00:42:57.599 --> 00:43:00.760
like they want to. The other final aspect I mentioned

823
00:43:00.760 --> 00:43:04.639
those that you know, sometimes people really you know, employees

824
00:43:04.679 --> 00:43:09.199
in certain sectors or maybe in certain roles, want to

825
00:43:09.199 --> 00:43:12.320
see limits on how much empowerment they have. They they

826
00:43:12.360 --> 00:43:14.119
see their job, as you know, not the main part

827
00:43:14.119 --> 00:43:16.639
of their life, and they want to be there for

828
00:43:16.960 --> 00:43:19.039
eight hours a day, but they don't want to be

829
00:43:19.079 --> 00:43:22.079
taking control of things. They don't want to be overly

830
00:43:22.119 --> 00:43:25.280
responsible for certain things. I've had people working with me

831
00:43:25.320 --> 00:43:27.480
who did a great job, but they really were not

832
00:43:27.639 --> 00:43:32.039
interested in responsibility in a certain sense. They wanted to

833
00:43:32.400 --> 00:43:35.159
avoid for lots of good reasons, they didn't want to

834
00:43:35.159 --> 00:43:37.960
be responsible for outcomes. And so you know, I think

835
00:43:38.000 --> 00:43:40.960
you have to you have to draw a fairly nuanced

836
00:43:40.960 --> 00:43:45.079
line through that word of empowerment, because I think in

837
00:43:45.119 --> 00:43:46.760
some cases it can scare people. You know, they don't

838
00:43:46.760 --> 00:43:48.440
they don't want to be empowered the way you want

839
00:43:48.440 --> 00:43:49.199
them to be empowered.

840
00:43:50.000 --> 00:43:54.159
Yeah, very very very good point, indeed, and West actually

841
00:43:54.199 --> 00:43:56.039
we did talk about that when we were on. When

842
00:43:56.079 --> 00:43:58.400
we were on, we did discuss it. I also have

843
00:43:58.840 --> 00:44:02.840
James rut coming on who wrote the archetype Effect, and

844
00:44:02.840 --> 00:44:05.760
he's identified six motivators at work, and one of the

845
00:44:05.800 --> 00:44:08.599
groups is the operators, and that that would probably describe

846
00:44:08.639 --> 00:44:10.679
a lot of what you're talking about. We need them

847
00:44:10.880 --> 00:44:14.159
very important part of organizations. It moves very differently. So

848
00:44:14.320 --> 00:44:17.239
I think that's really important not to assume that everybody

849
00:44:17.320 --> 00:44:19.199
wants the same thing, just like in the course of

850
00:44:19.199 --> 00:44:21.320
the generations and everything else we're talking about here.

851
00:44:21.880 --> 00:44:25.000
Yeah, the several of the organizations I've been in have

852
00:44:25.880 --> 00:44:29.440
talked about the importance of having a players, and you know,

853
00:44:29.480 --> 00:44:32.119
that's that's valuable up to a point. But if everybody

854
00:44:32.280 --> 00:44:35.880
is a person who's taking initiative and making decisions and

855
00:44:36.480 --> 00:44:39.280
demanding more and wanting to rise up in the organization.

856
00:44:39.639 --> 00:44:41.159
You know, you're gonna have a you're gonna have a

857
00:44:41.199 --> 00:44:44.039
dysfunctional place. There's room for what are so called, you know,

858
00:44:44.079 --> 00:44:47.559
maybe not in a positive sense, described as the bees

859
00:44:47.599 --> 00:44:49.400
and the c's. But if you change it around to

860
00:44:49.440 --> 00:44:52.440
say the operators, Uh, those are people who really make

861
00:44:52.480 --> 00:44:55.920
things happen. Do they have ambitions to run the unit

862
00:44:56.000 --> 00:44:59.960
or the company? No, but if everyone did, we'd.

863
00:44:59.519 --> 00:45:04.360
Actually have a right Indeed. Indeed, well, speaking of this conversation,

864
00:45:04.400 --> 00:45:07.159
we're really talking also about building the team and staffing.

865
00:45:07.159 --> 00:45:09.199
That's how I started in this industry, like twenty eight

866
00:45:09.280 --> 00:45:12.880
years ago, was recruiting and staffing. So I like the

867
00:45:12.960 --> 00:45:18.039
contribution that Andy Broemberg, who's the chairman of Echo. I

868
00:45:18.039 --> 00:45:20.519
think it is he says, we use a principle at

869
00:45:20.559 --> 00:45:23.599
Echo called hell yes or no. And so the the

870
00:45:23.679 --> 00:45:26.920
question is if it's about hiring somebody, should we bring

871
00:45:26.920 --> 00:45:30.440
this person on the answer the two choices are hell

872
00:45:30.519 --> 00:45:34.079
yes or no. I thought that that's fairly fairly funny.

873
00:45:34.119 --> 00:45:38.000
But perspective on that that idea.

874
00:45:38.599 --> 00:45:43.039
Well, I think that you know, he's an interesting younger executive,

875
00:45:43.079 --> 00:45:46.599
and he's built up some interesting things. I think as

876
00:45:46.760 --> 00:45:49.840
you move along in at least you know, maybe more

877
00:45:49.920 --> 00:45:54.559
layered organizations, you find that you know, you're you're probably

878
00:45:54.599 --> 00:45:59.360
having a somewhat more nuanced approach to how you bring

879
00:45:59.400 --> 00:46:03.599
people on. I mean they you know, there's a reality

880
00:46:03.679 --> 00:46:05.280
is there's a very good chance that opinions are going

881
00:46:05.320 --> 00:46:09.400
to be divided about a person. And so you know

882
00:46:09.599 --> 00:46:12.199
as a as a and and people are probably going

883
00:46:12.280 --> 00:46:14.960
to have pluses and minuses for how they will operate.

884
00:46:15.039 --> 00:46:19.119
So you're typically I think, making decisions either. You know,

885
00:46:19.159 --> 00:46:21.400
you're never going to get consensus about who's the best person.

886
00:46:21.480 --> 00:46:23.440
So if you are the senior leader, eventually just have

887
00:46:23.480 --> 00:46:27.559
to decide. You have to be prepared to compromise on

888
00:46:27.639 --> 00:46:29.599
certain things. No one's going to be perfect. I was

889
00:46:29.679 --> 00:46:31.559
just working with someone in a nonprofit that I'm on

890
00:46:31.599 --> 00:46:34.239
the board of, and I was she's planning to bring

891
00:46:34.280 --> 00:46:36.519
in a new person to work with her, and she

892
00:46:36.559 --> 00:46:39.079
had a laundry list of things that this person ought

893
00:46:39.079 --> 00:46:40.840
to be able to do. And you know what we

894
00:46:40.920 --> 00:46:42.320
agreed in the end was, well, you know, let's put

895
00:46:42.360 --> 00:46:45.079
those into buckets of A, B and C. You know,

896
00:46:45.440 --> 00:46:48.199
A being top priority, be you know great, and C

897
00:46:48.559 --> 00:46:51.480
you know, nice to have, because otherwise you're going to

898
00:46:51.599 --> 00:46:53.760
be trying to find a person that doesn't exist, which

899
00:46:53.800 --> 00:46:56.320
is who has all these capabilities, or they're going to

900
00:46:56.360 --> 00:46:58.639
say they do and you'll be very disappointed. And then

901
00:46:58.679 --> 00:46:59.920
the other thing you have to be prepared for is

902
00:47:00.159 --> 00:47:01.880
even if you say yes to somebody, turn out to

903
00:47:02.400 --> 00:47:04.159
six months later to realize that they're the wrong person,

904
00:47:04.199 --> 00:47:06.239
and you have to have the insight to realize that

905
00:47:06.239 --> 00:47:08.679
that happened, not necessarily that they're a bad person, but

906
00:47:08.760 --> 00:47:09.360
it's a bad fit.

907
00:47:10.480 --> 00:47:15.480
Indeed. Indeed, we also have something in the book here

908
00:47:15.480 --> 00:47:17.239
that they don't really have time to talk about, but

909
00:47:17.280 --> 00:47:18.800
I do want to call it out. Is it's the

910
00:47:18.880 --> 00:47:23.559
idea that many people organizations tend to hire ourselves. And

911
00:47:24.039 --> 00:47:26.280
I discovered it when I was in recruiting too, Ken

912
00:47:26.320 --> 00:47:28.800
when you when I was taking the wreck or dispect,

913
00:47:28.800 --> 00:47:31.480
people would say, wow, want this business is businessness? And

914
00:47:31.519 --> 00:47:33.679
what they would be describing, I'd look right up and say,

915
00:47:33.679 --> 00:47:37.039
you want me to hire a clone of you? Oh no, no,

916
00:47:37.400 --> 00:47:40.000
well that's what you just described. So I just want

917
00:47:40.039 --> 00:47:42.599
to point that out as it's one of the many

918
00:47:42.679 --> 00:47:44.559
evils and things that we just have to be aware

919
00:47:44.559 --> 00:47:46.440
of and bring to our consciousness to do differently.

920
00:47:47.079 --> 00:47:49.199
Yeah, I think it's related to that diversity topic, right.

921
00:47:49.239 --> 00:47:51.840
I mean that if you hire nothing but people like yourself,

922
00:47:51.880 --> 00:47:54.920
you aren't going to have the diversity of insights around

923
00:47:54.920 --> 00:47:57.679
you that you need to have, and then you'll be disappointed.

924
00:47:58.079 --> 00:48:01.440
Indeed, indeed, well, well, this show can has listened to

925
00:48:01.440 --> 00:48:04.280
by people around the world who are interested in either

926
00:48:04.440 --> 00:48:07.119
elevating their organizations to a higher level like we're talking

927
00:48:07.159 --> 00:48:10.199
about here, a more highly functional, becoming better versions of

928
00:48:10.280 --> 00:48:12.599
leaders themselves, or are really trying to be able to

929
00:48:12.639 --> 00:48:15.119
weigh in and contribute to the world of work in

930
00:48:15.119 --> 00:48:17.039
a more positive way. What would you like to leave

931
00:48:17.079 --> 00:48:17.400
them with?

932
00:48:18.320 --> 00:48:22.360
Well, I think that I would leave behind the thought

933
00:48:22.400 --> 00:48:25.480
that while sometimes we think of leaders as people at

934
00:48:25.480 --> 00:48:28.880
the top of an organization, I really think everyone is

935
00:48:28.880 --> 00:48:32.320
a leader in different ways, and often most especially the

936
00:48:32.320 --> 00:48:34.480
people who are at the working level, because they are

937
00:48:34.519 --> 00:48:37.800
the ones who work with the stakeholders figure out how

938
00:48:37.840 --> 00:48:41.039
to get things done and make things happen. And so

939
00:48:41.440 --> 00:48:44.719
I think to me, that's the best concept, best definition

940
00:48:44.719 --> 00:48:45.320
of leadership.

941
00:48:45.880 --> 00:48:49.280
Beautiful way to finish. Thanks for coming on working on purpose, Kein,

942
00:48:49.400 --> 00:48:51.519
very happy to know you you really have taught me

943
00:48:51.599 --> 00:48:54.440
a lot, you and your colleagues and inspired Thank.

944
00:48:54.280 --> 00:48:56.360
You thanks for having me. It was great to be

945
00:48:56.440 --> 00:48:57.920
with you and I learned a lot as well.

946
00:48:58.239 --> 00:49:00.559
I'm glad I should be like that. So what doctor

947
00:49:00.559 --> 00:49:04.119
Sue says, it should be like that? Listeners and viewers,

948
00:49:04.239 --> 00:49:06.360
you're going to want to learn more about Ken Banks,

949
00:49:06.360 --> 00:49:08.440
the Vancard Network and the book that he has out

950
00:49:08.440 --> 00:49:11.679
Seeing around Corners. So I suggest a couple of things. One,

951
00:49:11.719 --> 00:49:14.760
you can go to the main website, it's the Vanguardnetwork

952
00:49:14.880 --> 00:49:19.519
dot nyc. You can also find him on LinkedIn, and

953
00:49:19.599 --> 00:49:23.679
you can also directly email him at Kabanta at the

954
00:49:23.920 --> 00:49:28.840
Vanguardnetwork dot NYC. Last week, give you missed a live

955
00:49:28.880 --> 00:49:31.119
show you can always catch be a recorded podcast. We

956
00:49:31.119 --> 00:49:33.159
were on the air with Marilyn Vetter, the CEO of

957
00:49:33.199 --> 00:49:37.440
Pheasants Forever, a six hundred team championing habitat Conservation, talking

958
00:49:37.440 --> 00:49:40.800
about Champanese culture as a leader's job with everyone else

959
00:49:40.880 --> 00:49:43.519
having a hand. Next week, we'll be on the air

960
00:49:43.559 --> 00:49:46.840
with James talking about his new book, The Archetype Effect,

961
00:49:46.960 --> 00:49:50.119
Unlocking the six Types of Motivation. Network. See you then

962
00:49:50.159 --> 00:49:52.280
and together, let's lean in and learn together. How to

963
00:49:52.320 --> 00:49:55.000
make workplaces that work for everyone, and find ways to

964
00:49:55.000 --> 00:49:57.159
do business in a way that betters the world. Let's

965
00:49:57.159 --> 00:49:58.000
Work on Purpose.

966
00:50:01.559 --> 00:50:04.239
We hope you've enjoyed this week's program. Be sure to

967
00:50:04.280 --> 00:50:07.920
tune into Working on Purpose featuring your host, doctor Elise Cortes,

968
00:50:08.039 --> 00:50:11.360
each week on W four CY. Together, we'll create a

969
00:50:11.400 --> 00:50:16.000
world where business operates conscientiously. Leadership inspires and passion performance

970
00:50:16.119 --> 00:50:18.880
and employees are fulfilled in work that provides the meaning

971
00:50:18.920 --> 00:50:22.719
and purpose they crave. See you there, Let's work on Purpose.