Nov. 4, 2025

Evolving into the Secure Leader You’re Meant to Be

Evolving into the Secure Leader You’re Meant to Be
iHeartRadio podcast player icon Spotify podcast player icon Amazon Music podcast player icon Audible podcast player icon Pandora podcast player icon Apple Podcasts podcast player icon Podchaser podcast player icon Deezer podcast player icon Audacy podcast player icon Youtube Music podcast player icon Spreaker podcast player icon Podcast Addict podcast player icon Castbox podcast player icon JioSaavn podcast player icon Castamatic podcast player icon Castro podcast player icon Fountain podcast player icon Goodpods podcast player icon Overcast podcast player icon PlayerFM podcast player icon PocketCasts podcast player icon Podimo podcast player icon Podurama podcast player icon Podverse podcast player icon Podyssey podcast player icon YouTube podcast player icon RSS Feed podcast player icon
iHeartRadio podcast player icon Spotify podcast player icon Amazon Music podcast player icon Audible podcast player icon Pandora podcast player icon Apple Podcasts podcast player icon Podchaser podcast player icon Deezer podcast player icon Audacy podcast player icon Youtube Music podcast player icon Spreaker podcast player icon Podcast Addict podcast player icon Castbox podcast player icon JioSaavn podcast player icon Castamatic podcast player icon Castro podcast player icon Fountain podcast player icon Goodpods podcast player icon Overcast podcast player icon PlayerFM podcast player icon PocketCasts podcast player icon Podimo podcast player icon Podurama podcast player icon Podverse podcast player icon Podyssey podcast player icon YouTube podcast player icon RSS Feed podcast player icon

Every leader carries a story that shapes how they relate, influence, and inspire. Whether you lead from security, anxiety, or avoidance, you can rewrite that story. Learn to reexamine your personal narrative, extract its wisdom, heal old scripts, and consciously reauthor your path toward grounded, secure, and vibrant leadership.

Working on Purpose is broadcast live Tuesdays at 6PM ET and Music on W4CY Radio (www.w4cy.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com). Working on Purpose is viewed on Talk 4 TV (www.talk4tv.com).

Working on Purpose Podcast is also available on Talk 4 Media (www.talk4media.com), Talk 4 Podcasting (www.talk4podcasting.com), iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, Audible, and over 100 other podcast outlets.

Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/working-on-purpose--2643411/support.

WEBVTT

1
00:00:00.200 --> 00:00:02.439
The topics and opinions express in the following show are

2
00:00:02.439 --> 00:00:04.080
solely those of the hosts and their guests, and not

3
00:00:04.120 --> 00:00:07.040
those of W FOURCY Radio. It's employees are affiliates. We

4
00:00:07.080 --> 00:00:10.160
make no recommendations or endorsements for radio show programs, services,

5
00:00:10.240 --> 00:00:12.560
or products mentioned on air or on our web. No

6
00:00:12.640 --> 00:00:15.839
liability explicitor implies shall be extended to W FOURCY Radio

7
00:00:15.880 --> 00:00:18.640
or its employees are affiliates. Any questions or comments should

8
00:00:18.640 --> 00:00:21.000
be directed to those show hosts. Thank you for choosing

9
00:00:21.120 --> 00:00:27.879
W FOURCY Radio.

10
00:00:28.280 --> 00:00:31.679
What's working on Purpose? Anyway? Each week we ponder the

11
00:00:31.719 --> 00:00:34.880
answer to this question. People ache for meaning and purpose

12
00:00:34.920 --> 00:00:38.280
at work, to contribute their talents passionately and know their

13
00:00:38.320 --> 00:00:41.719
lives really matter. They crave being part of an organization

14
00:00:41.799 --> 00:00:44.520
that inspires them and helps them grow into realizing their

15
00:00:44.600 --> 00:00:47.640
highest potential. Business can be such a force for good

16
00:00:47.640 --> 00:00:51.280
in the world, elevating humanity. In our program, we provide

17
00:00:51.280 --> 00:00:54.359
guidance and inspiration to help usher in this world we

18
00:00:54.399 --> 00:00:58.679
all want working on Purpose. Now here's your host, doctor

19
00:00:58.719 --> 00:00:59.799
Elise Cortes.

20
00:01:05.040 --> 00:01:06.920
Welcome back to the Working and Purpose Program, which has

21
00:01:06.959 --> 00:01:09.000
there brought to you with passion and pride since February

22
00:01:09.040 --> 00:01:11.680
of twenty fifteen. As for tuning again this week. Great

23
00:01:11.719 --> 00:01:14.319
to have you. I'm your host, doctor Elis Cortes. If

24
00:01:14.319 --> 00:01:16.280
we've not met before, you don't know me. I am

25
00:01:16.280 --> 00:01:21.400
a workforce advisor, organizational psychologist, management consultant, logo therapists, speaker

26
00:01:21.439 --> 00:01:23.840
and author. My team and I at Gusto Now help

27
00:01:23.920 --> 00:01:27.040
companies enliven and fortify their operations by building a dynamic,

28
00:01:27.120 --> 00:01:31.319
high performance culture, inspirational leadership and nurturing managers activated by

29
00:01:31.400 --> 00:01:34.680
meaning and purpose. And did you know that inspired employees

30
00:01:35.079 --> 00:01:38.400
in purpose that organizations outperform their satisfied peers by a

31
00:01:38.400 --> 00:01:41.560
factor of two point twenty five to one. In other words,

32
00:01:41.599 --> 00:01:43.959
inspiration is good for the bottom line. You can learn

33
00:01:43.959 --> 00:01:45.519
more about us and how we can work together at

34
00:01:45.560 --> 00:01:49.280
Gusto dashnow dot com and my personal site, Elis Coortes

35
00:01:49.319 --> 00:01:53.000
dot com. Getting into today's program, we have doctor Jamie Goff,

36
00:01:53.120 --> 00:01:56.239
the founder of The Empathic Leader, where she specializes in

37
00:01:56.280 --> 00:02:01.359
helping leaders unlock their full potential through executive coaching, insightful workshops,

38
00:02:01.400 --> 00:02:04.439
and thought provoking keynotes. She also serves as the director

39
00:02:04.439 --> 00:02:07.560
of leadership Development for an international health care system, where

40
00:02:07.560 --> 00:02:10.759
she designs and leads innovative programs that inspire leaders to thrive.

41
00:02:11.120 --> 00:02:13.759
Her career began in higher education as a professor of

42
00:02:13.840 --> 00:02:17.000
couple and family therapy and later as an academic dean.

43
00:02:17.520 --> 00:02:20.120
She's the author of The Secure Leader, Discover the Hidden

44
00:02:20.199 --> 00:02:23.719
Forces that shape your Leadership story and how to change them.

45
00:02:23.919 --> 00:02:26.680
We'll be talking about her research and expertise in relational

46
00:02:26.680 --> 00:02:30.719
attachment styles and how they're manifesting leadership effectiveness. She judged

47
00:02:30.719 --> 00:02:34.680
today from Dallas. Jamie, A hearty welcome to Working on Purpose.

48
00:02:35.680 --> 00:02:37.280
Thank you, e Lise, thank you for having me.

49
00:02:38.080 --> 00:02:40.599
Very welcome, and let's celebrate this beautiful thing you brought

50
00:02:40.639 --> 00:02:43.560
into the world. It's gorgeous and I want to say

51
00:02:43.639 --> 00:02:47.400
a couple things about it. One, it's really a unique

52
00:02:47.439 --> 00:02:50.199
take on leadership. As I mentioned before we got on air,

53
00:02:51.000 --> 00:02:53.000
we cover a lot of topics around leadership, but this

54
00:02:53.039 --> 00:02:56.240
is really a unique, specific take that really you are

55
00:02:56.400 --> 00:02:59.360
uniquely qualified to talk about. And I also want to

56
00:02:59.360 --> 00:03:04.280
congratulate you on creating a very cogently written that hangs

57
00:03:04.280 --> 00:03:08.439
together tight. I love the examples. Just really well done, Jamie.

58
00:03:09.039 --> 00:03:11.039
Thank you. That means so much to me at least.

59
00:03:11.240 --> 00:03:13.560
Yeah, you're welcome and we were talking before we got

60
00:03:13.599 --> 00:03:15.639
on air. I remember when we met more than a

61
00:03:15.680 --> 00:03:17.759
year ago in Mexican Sugar and this was, you know,

62
00:03:17.800 --> 00:03:18.599
a dream of viewers.

63
00:03:18.599 --> 00:03:19.960
You were working on making it happen.

64
00:03:19.960 --> 00:03:21.800
And I said, right then and there, well, when you

65
00:03:21.800 --> 00:03:23.319
get a done, sister, you've got to come on my

66
00:03:23.360 --> 00:03:24.400
podcast to talk about it.

67
00:03:24.439 --> 00:03:25.479
And here we are.

68
00:03:25.960 --> 00:03:28.240
Here we are, and you've been such a great supporter

69
00:03:28.319 --> 00:03:31.680
along the entire journey. So I'm deeply grateful.

70
00:03:31.479 --> 00:03:33.400
You're welcome, and you know we need to do that

71
00:03:33.520 --> 00:03:36.159
for each other, right, we all need encouragement and support,

72
00:03:36.280 --> 00:03:38.159
especially when we're going for our dreams.

73
00:03:38.439 --> 00:03:38.840
Yeah.

74
00:03:38.879 --> 00:03:41.879
Absolutely, Well, I want to situate for our listeners and

75
00:03:41.960 --> 00:03:43.800
viewers who don't know you as well as I do.

76
00:03:44.439 --> 00:03:46.680
I think you're the fact that you have a background

77
00:03:46.680 --> 00:03:50.479
first in academia and physically and mental health, and then

78
00:03:50.599 --> 00:03:53.919
as you know your work today as an executive development

79
00:03:54.000 --> 00:03:57.439
and coach and corporate healthcare and other organizations. It's really

80
00:03:57.479 --> 00:03:59.599
quite unique that you have both of those backgrounds. So

81
00:03:59.719 --> 00:04:01.759
if you just sort of situate how you got into

82
00:04:01.879 --> 00:04:05.120
those fields and how maybe they complement each other.

83
00:04:05.680 --> 00:04:06.680
Yeah, absolutely.

84
00:04:07.759 --> 00:04:11.800
So you know, like many college students, you're just kind

85
00:04:11.800 --> 00:04:14.960
of choosing a major that sounds interesting. So you know,

86
00:04:14.960 --> 00:04:17.720
when I was in college, of course, I majored in psychology,

87
00:04:17.800 --> 00:04:20.399
and then did my graduate in PhD work specifically in

88
00:04:20.480 --> 00:04:26.000
couple in family therapy, and I first began getting into

89
00:04:26.199 --> 00:04:29.319
the attachment sciences. Actually, when I was a PhD student,

90
00:04:30.240 --> 00:04:33.560
I did some work on a research team where we

91
00:04:33.560 --> 00:04:38.839
were working to reunify mothers, very young mothers, most of

92
00:04:38.879 --> 00:04:41.720
them with their infants, who had been removed from the

93
00:04:41.759 --> 00:04:44.319
home due to primarily neglect.

94
00:04:45.519 --> 00:04:46.879
And I was a.

95
00:04:46.839 --> 00:04:49.560
Therapist on that team, and I was working with these

96
00:04:49.600 --> 00:04:53.800
young mothers to teach them how to form secure attachments

97
00:04:53.800 --> 00:04:56.600
with their babies, and all of these babies were under

98
00:04:56.680 --> 00:05:00.040
two years of age, helping them to be attuned, to

99
00:05:00.079 --> 00:05:02.519
be able to read their child's responses so that they

100
00:05:02.560 --> 00:05:07.360
could build secure attachment relationships with them, setting them up

101
00:05:07.399 --> 00:05:13.160
for future success when they were eventually reunified. Then, later

102
00:05:13.199 --> 00:05:16.879
on in my career as a couple of family therapists,

103
00:05:16.959 --> 00:05:22.160
I actually decided to specialize in couples therapy and I

104
00:05:22.199 --> 00:05:27.519
became trained in some attachment based couple relational approaches to therapy.

105
00:05:27.879 --> 00:05:30.279
So looking at kind of some of those same dynamics

106
00:05:30.360 --> 00:05:35.560
around attunement and responsiveness to one another in relationships and

107
00:05:35.600 --> 00:05:39.560
how that plays out in couple relationships. And then when

108
00:05:39.560 --> 00:05:42.480
I found myself in my very first leadership role, I

109
00:05:42.519 --> 00:05:45.040
started thinking about how.

110
00:05:44.920 --> 00:05:46.560
Some of these same dynamics.

111
00:05:46.560 --> 00:05:51.600
As I was observing relationships between leaders and their followers

112
00:05:51.639 --> 00:05:55.399
and also thinking about myself as a leader, I realized

113
00:05:55.480 --> 00:05:57.879
that a lot of the same dynamics were present in

114
00:05:57.920 --> 00:06:00.920
those relationships as well. And so that's when I first

115
00:06:01.000 --> 00:06:05.680
became interested in really exploring how the attachment sciences might

116
00:06:05.839 --> 00:06:09.560
inform how we show up as leaders in the workplace.

117
00:06:10.839 --> 00:06:14.759
That is beautiful, What a stunning narration of the steps

118
00:06:14.759 --> 00:06:17.920
along the way that got to where you are today.

119
00:06:18.040 --> 00:06:20.079
You have a lot of great data in your book,

120
00:06:20.079 --> 00:06:22.319
and a lot of the stories are very relatable. And

121
00:06:22.360 --> 00:06:24.040
one of the things I want to call to here

122
00:06:24.199 --> 00:06:27.639
is just the opportunity here which is also disguised as

123
00:06:27.680 --> 00:06:31.439
a problem. And you talk about how your two examples

124
00:06:31.480 --> 00:06:34.519
in your book are are Joanna and David, but you

125
00:06:35.079 --> 00:06:39.839
really talk a lot about how when a recent survey

126
00:06:39.879 --> 00:06:42.160
showed that seventy five percent of workers said that the

127
00:06:42.160 --> 00:06:45.199
most stressful aspect of their job was their immediate boss,

128
00:06:45.439 --> 00:06:49.120
and fifty six claimed their boss was mildly or highly toxic.

129
00:06:49.839 --> 00:06:52.439
So that's why this stuff is so important. Then I

130
00:06:52.480 --> 00:06:53.879
can tell you and I know you can relate to

131
00:06:53.920 --> 00:06:56.480
this is I so badly want to reach and help

132
00:06:56.519 --> 00:06:58.959
more leaders, and so many of them are resistant to

133
00:06:59.040 --> 00:07:03.319
don't really think they need help, but these numbers say otherwise.

134
00:07:03.240 --> 00:07:04.720
Yeah, they absolutely do.

135
00:07:04.800 --> 00:07:07.759
And that you know, that research comes from McKinsey, of course,

136
00:07:07.759 --> 00:07:11.079
who you know, they're looking at huge populations of leaders

137
00:07:11.079 --> 00:07:13.720
and employees when they when they collect this data and

138
00:07:13.759 --> 00:07:17.120
do this research. So this isn't yeah, this isn't an anomaly.

139
00:07:17.279 --> 00:07:22.360
This this really represents a large population. And uh, you know,

140
00:07:22.480 --> 00:07:25.000
we've all you know, or probably many of us have

141
00:07:25.040 --> 00:07:27.839
seen the research that points to the impact that leaders

142
00:07:27.879 --> 00:07:31.920
have on you know, their employees' mental health, they're just

143
00:07:31.959 --> 00:07:36.160
their overall general well being. And so leaders are incredibly

144
00:07:36.199 --> 00:07:40.079
important in the lives of the people that report to them.

145
00:07:40.519 --> 00:07:43.319
And on top of that, of course, we do spend

146
00:07:43.519 --> 00:07:46.920
most of our time, most of our waking hours at

147
00:07:46.959 --> 00:07:50.759
work in the workplace, right, and so it it can

148
00:07:50.879 --> 00:07:53.680
either be you know, the workplace can either be a

149
00:07:53.720 --> 00:07:58.120
place where you know, we can flourish and feel fulfilled

150
00:07:58.279 --> 00:08:02.800
and have purpose as you like to talk about, or

151
00:08:03.319 --> 00:08:06.240
in this situation, when you know, bosses are seen as

152
00:08:06.240 --> 00:08:09.959
stressful and toxic, they often really drain us and can

153
00:08:10.000 --> 00:08:15.920
take away from our flourishing and hurt us in some ways.

154
00:08:15.959 --> 00:08:17.839
And so to me, that is just so important to

155
00:08:19.360 --> 00:08:22.120
really look at how we can make our workplaces better.

156
00:08:22.199 --> 00:08:24.120
And I do believe it all starts with leadership.

157
00:08:24.959 --> 00:08:28.199
I completely agree, and I completely also agree the huge

158
00:08:28.240 --> 00:08:32.440
impact we can make negatively and positively in people's lives.

159
00:08:33.080 --> 00:08:36.360
So I love your three part formula that you put

160
00:08:36.360 --> 00:08:38.480
in your books. That's part of what I'm speaking of,

161
00:08:38.879 --> 00:08:41.039
how tightly written your book is. And so step one

162
00:08:41.039 --> 00:08:44.799
of your three part formula involves deconstructing our leadership story.

163
00:08:45.200 --> 00:08:46.399
And I really like how you.

164
00:08:46.399 --> 00:08:49.480
Talk about how to understand the development of our left

165
00:08:49.480 --> 00:08:51.120
and right brains, et cetera. So if you could talk

166
00:08:51.120 --> 00:08:53.600
a little bit about this first step of deconstructing our

167
00:08:53.679 --> 00:08:54.440
leadership story.

168
00:08:54.960 --> 00:08:58.399
Yeah, you know, I really believe that in order to

169
00:08:59.600 --> 00:09:02.679
kind moved forward, we need to take time to look back,

170
00:09:03.639 --> 00:09:06.840
and that that really this really is about self awareness

171
00:09:07.000 --> 00:09:13.000
and honestly looking at our previous like life experiences, honestly

172
00:09:13.039 --> 00:09:16.399
looking at you know, our childhoods and what we experience,

173
00:09:16.480 --> 00:09:19.960
not not for the purpose of blaming you know, our

174
00:09:20.080 --> 00:09:25.679
parents or you know, trying to find scapegoats for you know,

175
00:09:25.840 --> 00:09:28.320
some of the challenges we might face in our adult lives,

176
00:09:28.360 --> 00:09:32.279
but just for the purpose of self awareness and really understanding,

177
00:09:32.279 --> 00:09:35.519
because I think that awareness helps us to identify where

178
00:09:35.519 --> 00:09:38.639
we need to maybe make some changes. And so deconstructing

179
00:09:38.639 --> 00:09:42.480
our stories is all about looking back at our past

180
00:09:42.919 --> 00:09:46.080
and really trying to understand where some of our patterns

181
00:09:46.080 --> 00:09:49.919
of behavior, especially in leadership for this book, come from,

182
00:09:50.399 --> 00:09:52.960
Like why do we show up the way that we

183
00:09:53.039 --> 00:09:56.559
do as leaders? How did we develop some of these

184
00:09:56.679 --> 00:09:59.360
patterns that we might engage in. Why is it so

185
00:09:59.480 --> 00:10:02.720
challenging for us to delegate or why do we feel

186
00:10:02.720 --> 00:10:05.080
like we always need to be the fun boss? So

187
00:10:05.399 --> 00:10:08.440
really understanding where those dynamics come from, I think is

188
00:10:08.480 --> 00:10:12.039
the first step. And as we look back, you know,

189
00:10:12.919 --> 00:10:15.519
there are likely things in our past and in our past,

190
00:10:15.639 --> 00:10:18.159
you know, our stories as they've developed over time. There

191
00:10:18.159 --> 00:10:20.720
are some themes that we want to keep because they're

192
00:10:20.799 --> 00:10:23.600
valuable and they've served us well and continue to serve

193
00:10:23.679 --> 00:10:26.120
us well. But oftentimes when we look back, what we

194
00:10:26.200 --> 00:10:29.200
can see is that there are some elements of our stories,

195
00:10:29.200 --> 00:10:32.559
of our behaviors and patterns that aren't serving us well anymore,

196
00:10:33.200 --> 00:10:35.080
and so the decision may need to be made to

197
00:10:35.799 --> 00:10:39.279
rewrite that, to do something different, and to change that

198
00:10:39.440 --> 00:10:41.799
part of our lives. Some might need just a little

199
00:10:41.799 --> 00:10:44.840
bit of revision, some might need, you know, complete rewriting.

200
00:10:46.080 --> 00:10:47.320
Let's just start over.

201
00:10:47.720 --> 00:10:48.320
Yes.

202
00:10:49.360 --> 00:10:49.559
Well.

203
00:10:49.559 --> 00:10:52.360
One of the reasons that I co wrote my latest

204
00:10:52.399 --> 00:10:54.399
book it's called The Power of Soulful Healing with the

205
00:10:54.480 --> 00:10:58.279
clinical psychologist Jamie is because the premise is is that

206
00:10:58.360 --> 00:11:01.519
every single one of us are walking humans, every one

207
00:11:01.519 --> 00:11:04.279
of us. It's just it's tender, this thing called life.

208
00:11:04.799 --> 00:11:07.879
And so the more aware we become of how we're

209
00:11:07.919 --> 00:11:10.320
wounded and where we're hurt and what we're doing to

210
00:11:10.360 --> 00:11:13.679
try to heal that, the more effective we are in life,

211
00:11:13.720 --> 00:11:16.120
the better our relationships ECCEA and we all have to

212
00:11:16.159 --> 00:11:16.759
do that work.

213
00:11:17.360 --> 00:11:20.559
Yep, absolutely absolutely so.

214
00:11:20.720 --> 00:11:24.879
I had the first time that I've understood the attachment sciences.

215
00:11:24.919 --> 00:11:27.919
I was dating somebody in twenty twenty and I just

216
00:11:28.039 --> 00:11:30.519
couldn't understand him, and I also wanted to better understand

217
00:11:30.559 --> 00:11:32.840
my daughter as well. So that's how I started learning

218
00:11:32.840 --> 00:11:37.320
about the attachment sciences and came to understand secure, anxious,

219
00:11:37.360 --> 00:11:42.000
and avoidant attachment styles. Can you introduce, excuse me, each

220
00:11:42.039 --> 00:11:43.759
of those for our listeners and viewers.

221
00:11:44.159 --> 00:11:47.879
Yeah, absolutely, And I do want to mention if anyone

222
00:11:48.039 --> 00:11:52.200
listening you know also has maybe some expertise and attachment sciences.

223
00:11:52.559 --> 00:11:58.039
There is a fourth style, which is disorganized or ambivalent,

224
00:11:58.600 --> 00:12:00.559
depending on if you're looking at children adults. So I

225
00:12:00.600 --> 00:12:05.039
don't really address in the book simply because it's linked

226
00:12:05.039 --> 00:12:09.960
to more severe trauma, and so in speaking about not

227
00:12:10.000 --> 00:12:12.559
that leaders there aren't leaders who don't have severe trauma

228
00:12:12.919 --> 00:12:15.240
in their lives, but especially when it comes to coaching

229
00:12:16.080 --> 00:12:18.360
and looking at leadership in the workplace, I think the

230
00:12:18.799 --> 00:12:23.159
space for that is in psychotherapy, and so I don't

231
00:12:23.159 --> 00:12:26.039
really deal with that piece. But the three major attachment

232
00:12:26.080 --> 00:12:29.279
styles that I do speak about in the book, the

233
00:12:29.320 --> 00:12:34.360
first being secure, and this is the attachment style we

234
00:12:34.440 --> 00:12:37.879
tend to develop when we have what I call good

235
00:12:38.000 --> 00:12:42.440
enough parents. Right, no parents are perfect, but when our

236
00:12:42.480 --> 00:12:45.279
parents are caregivers, maybe they're not parents, but when our

237
00:12:45.320 --> 00:12:50.480
caregivers are generally consistent in the way that they respond

238
00:12:50.559 --> 00:12:53.639
to our needs, especially during those first eighteen months of

239
00:12:53.679 --> 00:12:56.120
our lives. When we feel like we can count on

240
00:12:56.200 --> 00:12:59.080
them to be there when we're hungry, or when we're tired,

241
00:12:59.159 --> 00:13:03.559
or when we're afraid, then we develop security. We develop

242
00:13:03.600 --> 00:13:06.720
the belief that other people are trustworthy and they're going

243
00:13:06.799 --> 00:13:07.879
to be there for us when.

244
00:13:07.720 --> 00:13:08.360
We need them.

245
00:13:08.759 --> 00:13:12.399
And we also begin to develop the belief that we're worthy.

246
00:13:12.600 --> 00:13:15.759
Right if someone is taking the time to care for

247
00:13:15.799 --> 00:13:19.279
me and love me and treat me with dignity, even

248
00:13:19.320 --> 00:13:22.399
as a very young person, then I begin to see

249
00:13:22.440 --> 00:13:26.559
myself as having just worth because I'm a human being,

250
00:13:26.960 --> 00:13:31.879
And so that generates a sense of competence and confidence

251
00:13:31.919 --> 00:13:33.919
in the way that we move about the world.

252
00:13:35.200 --> 00:13:36.120
So that's secure.

253
00:13:36.440 --> 00:13:39.919
And then in adulthood, obviously, those that have that secure

254
00:13:39.960 --> 00:13:43.799
attachment style, they're able to form more healthy relationships that

255
00:13:43.840 --> 00:13:48.360
have a good balance of both independence and dependence. Right,

256
00:13:48.399 --> 00:13:51.559
there's that interdependence like I know who I am, I

257
00:13:51.600 --> 00:13:54.080
know who you are, but we're there for each other

258
00:13:54.159 --> 00:13:58.039
and we're very deeply connected to one another. And they

259
00:13:58.080 --> 00:14:02.519
also are able to set good bounceies too, because they

260
00:14:02.600 --> 00:14:05.879
recognize that they don't have to take on everybody else's

261
00:14:05.879 --> 00:14:10.000
feelings or everyone else's problems. That they can see the

262
00:14:10.000 --> 00:14:13.720
boundary between themselves and others, and as leaders, then these

263
00:14:13.759 --> 00:14:17.519
people are the ones who are you open to feedback

264
00:14:17.559 --> 00:14:20.799
from anywhere you know in the organization. They can admit

265
00:14:20.840 --> 00:14:25.679
their mistakes. They are able to coach and develop their

266
00:14:25.720 --> 00:14:29.559
teams because they want to lift other people up, and

267
00:14:29.600 --> 00:14:33.360
they're not threatened by the success of other people on

268
00:14:33.399 --> 00:14:36.720
their teams, and they create those environments of psychological safety

269
00:14:36.759 --> 00:14:38.039
and flourishing.

270
00:14:38.480 --> 00:14:40.120
So that those are secure leaders.

271
00:14:41.440 --> 00:14:50.000
The second style anxious attachment. Insecure anxious. Oftentimes these individuals

272
00:14:51.000 --> 00:14:54.080
when they're very young, they're in caregiving environments that are

273
00:14:54.200 --> 00:15:00.919
chaotic and inconsistent, and so many times this has been

274
00:15:00.919 --> 00:15:04.559
linked to like alcoholism or some kind of substance abuse

275
00:15:05.360 --> 00:15:07.200
in the home. This can be a common kind of

276
00:15:07.240 --> 00:15:12.840
outcome in that type of situation where sometimes a parent

277
00:15:12.960 --> 00:15:16.639
responds or a caregiver response to my needs, sometimes they don't,

278
00:15:16.759 --> 00:15:20.279
and it's very confusing and I can't identify what makes

279
00:15:20.320 --> 00:15:21.559
the difference, and.

280
00:15:21.559 --> 00:15:24.000
So many times what that leads to in terms of behavior.

281
00:15:24.080 --> 00:15:27.919
These are often the children who will throw the very

282
00:15:27.960 --> 00:15:31.000
severe temper tantrums because they're just trying to do whatever

283
00:15:31.039 --> 00:15:34.679
they can to get what they need from their caregivers

284
00:15:34.720 --> 00:15:38.519
and they know that sometimes they respond, so they kind

285
00:15:38.519 --> 00:15:40.759
of up the ante and trying to get that attention

286
00:15:40.960 --> 00:15:44.519
in the care that they need from their caregivers. And

287
00:15:44.600 --> 00:15:49.679
so what these individuals learned through those interactions, they typically

288
00:15:49.679 --> 00:15:52.279
begin to think that there's something They come to believe

289
00:15:52.320 --> 00:15:56.200
that there's something wrong with themselves. There's something wrong with

290
00:15:56.240 --> 00:15:59.360
me because I can't get this person to consistently care

291
00:15:59.440 --> 00:16:02.200
for me. What am I doing wrong when they don't?

292
00:16:02.759 --> 00:16:05.440
And then they also have trouble trusting because there is

293
00:16:05.480 --> 00:16:09.559
so much inconsistency. So in adulthood there drives.

294
00:16:09.559 --> 00:16:11.000
Let me let me stop you the writer the jeners

295
00:16:11.000 --> 00:16:12.519
real quick, because I really want to drill into that

296
00:16:12.559 --> 00:16:15.600
as well. Yeah, since it's time for a break, what

297
00:16:15.639 --> 00:16:17.360
I want to do is after we come back from

298
00:16:17.399 --> 00:16:21.399
the break, I'll ask you to situate the avoidance style

299
00:16:21.440 --> 00:16:23.120
and then I want to dive more deeply into how

300
00:16:23.240 --> 00:16:26.679
those two show up in leadership. You do that through

301
00:16:26.759 --> 00:16:28.519
David and Joanna, and that will help our listeners and

302
00:16:28.559 --> 00:16:30.679
viewers kind of hang on to it. But let's wrap

303
00:16:30.679 --> 00:16:34.200
our first break. Absolutely the host doctor Lea's Cortes, who

304
00:16:34.279 --> 00:16:36.200
run on the year of doctor Jamie Goff the founder

305
00:16:36.240 --> 00:16:39.320
of The Empathic Leader, where she specializes in helping leaders

306
00:16:39.399 --> 00:16:42.960
unlock their full potential through executive coaching, insight for workshops,

307
00:16:42.960 --> 00:16:46.200
and thought provoking keynotes. We've been talking a bit about

308
00:16:46.240 --> 00:16:51.120
how her initial work in attachment science and then executive

309
00:16:51.159 --> 00:16:54.240
coaching has come together, and we're also learning now about

310
00:16:54.240 --> 00:16:56.399
the different styles of attachment how they show up in

311
00:16:56.480 --> 00:16:58.639
our early life. After the work, we're going to talk

312
00:16:58.679 --> 00:17:02.200
more in depth about how those attachment styles and that

313
00:17:02.399 --> 00:17:04.640
science shows up and manifesting leadership.

314
00:17:04.680 --> 00:17:05.400
We'll be right back.

315
00:17:20.880 --> 00:17:24.440
Doctor Elise Cortes is a management consultant specializing in meaning

316
00:17:24.480 --> 00:17:28.279
and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author, she helps companies

317
00:17:28.400 --> 00:17:32.160
visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired

318
00:17:32.279 --> 00:17:36.240
leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and

319
00:17:36.279 --> 00:17:39.519
commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite

320
00:17:39.519 --> 00:17:42.279
a lease to speak to your organization, please visit her

321
00:17:42.359 --> 00:17:45.599
at Elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get

322
00:17:45.640 --> 00:17:54.400
your employees working on purpose. This is working on purpose

323
00:17:54.519 --> 00:17:57.799
with doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or

324
00:17:57.839 --> 00:18:00.599
to open a conversation with Elise, send an email to

325
00:18:00.640 --> 00:18:06.680
Elise Alisee at Eliscortes dot com now back to Working

326
00:18:06.759 --> 00:18:07.440
on Purpose.

327
00:18:13.480 --> 00:18:15.200
Thanks for staying with us, and welcome back to Working

328
00:18:15.279 --> 00:18:18.079
on Purpose. I am your host, doctor Elise Cortes, as

329
00:18:18.160 --> 00:18:20.200
I too, am dedicated to helping create a world or

330
00:18:20.279 --> 00:18:22.720
organizations thrive because there are people thrive, but they're led

331
00:18:22.720 --> 00:18:25.759
by inspirational leaders that help them find and contribute their greatness.

332
00:18:25.960 --> 00:18:27.839
And we do business at Betters the World. I keep

333
00:18:27.880 --> 00:18:29.920
researching and writing my own books. So one of my

334
00:18:30.000 --> 00:18:33.640
latest came out called The Great Revitalization, How activating meaning

335
00:18:33.640 --> 00:18:36.279
and purpose can radically in liven your business. And I

336
00:18:36.279 --> 00:18:39.480
wrote it to help leaders and readers understand the dynamics

337
00:18:39.519 --> 00:18:42.480
of today is very diverse and discerning workforce. What do

338
00:18:42.519 --> 00:18:44.720
they want from you and what do they would be

339
00:18:44.880 --> 00:18:47.119
like for you to supply in terms of culture and leadership?

340
00:18:47.319 --> 00:18:49.839
And then I give you twenty two best practices to equip.

341
00:18:49.559 --> 00:18:50.680
You to provide that for them.

342
00:18:51.000 --> 00:18:53.400
You can find my books on Amazon or any other

343
00:18:53.400 --> 00:18:56.920
booksellers as well as Elitecortes dot com if you are

344
00:18:57.000 --> 00:18:59.480
just joining us now. My guest is doctor Jamiekoff. She's

345
00:18:59.519 --> 00:19:02.559
the author of The Secure Leader Discovered the Hidden Forces

346
00:19:02.559 --> 00:19:04.200
that shape your leadership story.

347
00:19:04.119 --> 00:19:05.200
And how to change them.

348
00:19:05.960 --> 00:19:09.519
So before the break, you were just starting to introduce

349
00:19:09.599 --> 00:19:15.359
us to the insecure, anxious, dominant attachment style or approach,

350
00:19:15.759 --> 00:19:17.279
and you were sharing a bit about where they came

351
00:19:17.279 --> 00:19:19.240
from from our childhoods and such a beginning to start

352
00:19:19.240 --> 00:19:22.160
to talk about how it shows up in our adult behavior.

353
00:19:22.160 --> 00:19:24.359
If you could carry that on, and then I don't

354
00:19:24.359 --> 00:19:26.200
know if you want to talk about the other attachment

355
00:19:26.240 --> 00:19:28.119
style first, or if you want to go over and

356
00:19:28.160 --> 00:19:30.480
talk about Joanna and David as examples.

357
00:19:31.680 --> 00:19:35.599
Yeah, and so for we can maybe kind of continue

358
00:19:35.640 --> 00:19:41.279
on the anxious attachment style. And in the book, I

359
00:19:41.359 --> 00:19:45.799
kind of speak about David, a coaching client, as an

360
00:19:45.880 --> 00:19:50.079
example of someone with an anxious attachment style who's in.

361
00:19:50.000 --> 00:19:50.839
A leadership role.

362
00:19:51.400 --> 00:19:55.200
And one of the dynamics that I noticed in David's

363
00:19:55.279 --> 00:19:58.640
leadership is as we were working together, is that David

364
00:19:58.680 --> 00:20:04.680
had a really different cult time giving feedback. And this

365
00:20:04.839 --> 00:20:10.279
was primarily because David wanted to be liked and validated

366
00:20:10.680 --> 00:20:13.480
and he wanted to belong above everything else. That was

367
00:20:13.519 --> 00:20:17.440
his primary driving need, and so that made it difficult

368
00:20:17.480 --> 00:20:20.119
for him to give feedback to individual team members because

369
00:20:20.160 --> 00:20:22.400
he was afraid that if he did so, they wouldn't

370
00:20:22.519 --> 00:20:25.240
like him, they would leave the team, they wouldn't be

371
00:20:25.279 --> 00:20:28.200
as committed to the project. And so what ended up

372
00:20:28.240 --> 00:20:32.240
happening is that he punished the whole team essentially right

373
00:20:32.319 --> 00:20:38.119
because he didn't know how else to manage this underperforming

374
00:20:38.160 --> 00:20:40.599
team member in a one on one way, and so

375
00:20:40.640 --> 00:20:43.640
he would use kind of passive aggressive ways to deal

376
00:20:43.680 --> 00:20:46.079
with the problem of one person. And so we really

377
00:20:46.079 --> 00:20:50.240
had to dig into, like where did his fear of

378
00:20:50.279 --> 00:20:53.640
giving feedback come from? And that's when we discovered it

379
00:20:53.680 --> 00:20:56.640
came from that need he had to be liked and validated.

380
00:20:56.720 --> 00:20:58.920
He didn't really feel like he had much to offer,

381
00:20:59.400 --> 00:21:03.480
and so he was felt feeling really desperate to keep everybody.

382
00:21:03.079 --> 00:21:06.519
On the team happy, and that ended up backfiring on him.

383
00:21:07.000 --> 00:21:09.119
And so we were able to work together to get

384
00:21:09.200 --> 00:21:11.559
himTo a place where he kind of worked through some

385
00:21:11.720 --> 00:21:16.920
of those beliefs and challenged some of those driving needs

386
00:21:16.920 --> 00:21:18.799
for himself and was able to get to a place

387
00:21:18.799 --> 00:21:22.359
where he could give feedback and see the benefits of that.

388
00:21:23.119 --> 00:21:27.039
But he was operating out of that insecure anxious attachment style.

389
00:21:30.599 --> 00:21:35.359
And then the third style is the insecure avoidant attachment style.

390
00:21:35.920 --> 00:21:41.240
And this style develops when we have caregivers in our

391
00:21:41.240 --> 00:21:46.000
early childhood who basically are dismissive. They really don't pay

392
00:21:46.079 --> 00:21:49.079
much attention to us at all. So essentially we developed

393
00:21:49.079 --> 00:21:51.400
the belief that I have to do it on my own.

394
00:21:51.640 --> 00:21:53.920
I can't count on anybody else. I'm the only person

395
00:21:53.960 --> 00:21:55.680
I can count on. I have to take care of

396
00:21:55.720 --> 00:21:59.559
my own needs, and so in leadership in the book,

397
00:21:59.559 --> 00:22:05.000
I use the example of Joeyanna, who was a high

398
00:22:05.160 --> 00:22:08.920
individual high performing individual contributor, which is often the case

399
00:22:09.759 --> 00:22:14.160
among those who have avoidant styles, but when they move

400
00:22:14.200 --> 00:22:17.160
into leadership roles, they really struggle because they have a

401
00:22:17.240 --> 00:22:20.319
hard time delegating because they believe they're the only.

402
00:22:20.200 --> 00:22:21.720
Ones that can do it and can do it right.

403
00:22:21.960 --> 00:22:25.000
They have a hard time delegating and coaching other people

404
00:22:25.440 --> 00:22:29.119
growing their teams, and oftentimes they prefer to work alone,

405
00:22:29.200 --> 00:22:33.400
so they don't really want to be bothered with other people,

406
00:22:33.599 --> 00:22:36.000
and they see often can see other people as being

407
00:22:36.000 --> 00:22:38.799
a nuisance or as holding them back, and so there

408
00:22:38.880 --> 00:22:41.319
can be a lot of disengagement with the team, and

409
00:22:41.319 --> 00:22:46.240
so teams are left, you know, wondering, how how can

410
00:22:46.279 --> 00:22:48.319
I grow? I'm not allowed to do anything or I'm

411
00:22:48.359 --> 00:22:50.519
really micromanaged in the way I'm trying to do things,

412
00:22:50.519 --> 00:22:53.039
and I'm never able to put my own mark on

413
00:22:53.240 --> 00:22:53.720
my work.

414
00:22:54.240 --> 00:22:55.880
And so those are some of the dynamics you end

415
00:22:55.960 --> 00:22:57.599
up seeing in leadership.

416
00:22:59.480 --> 00:23:02.559
Well explained it now, listeners and viewers, as you were

417
00:23:02.559 --> 00:23:06.519
listening to that, I really want you to consider which

418
00:23:06.519 --> 00:23:09.039
of those styles maybe might speak to you. I can

419
00:23:09.079 --> 00:23:12.319
tell you when I read this, I realized I fall

420
00:23:12.359 --> 00:23:14.720
into the insecure avoidant group.

421
00:23:15.519 --> 00:23:16.640
I can totally.

422
00:23:16.440 --> 00:23:19.799
Recognize that, and that is just quite there, just break

423
00:23:19.799 --> 00:23:23.440
there recognizing this can really help. Yeah, you know, there

424
00:23:23.440 --> 00:23:26.200
are probably times when I can be more secure, but

425
00:23:26.319 --> 00:23:29.119
that would be my default style. And so you go

426
00:23:29.200 --> 00:23:32.720
on to say that it's important to recognize that even

427
00:23:32.960 --> 00:23:36.240
those secure adults may have tendencies toward anxious or avoidant

428
00:23:36.279 --> 00:23:38.920
relationship behaviors when they're under stress or when they feel

429
00:23:39.000 --> 00:23:42.079
vulnerable and threatened. As you talk about one of your

430
00:23:42.119 --> 00:23:46.319
mentors in the book where she caught you were caught

431
00:23:46.359 --> 00:23:49.079
off guard by her response and was totally unexpected, and

432
00:23:49.119 --> 00:23:52.119
she came back later and apologized, just something a secure

433
00:23:52.160 --> 00:23:55.200
leader can do when they recognize their behavior. Wasn't that

434
00:23:55.279 --> 00:23:59.200
what they wanted? And what was destroying relationships and results.

435
00:24:00.039 --> 00:24:02.400
Absolutely, and that's repair. Right.

436
00:24:02.440 --> 00:24:05.519
So, secure leaders make mistakes. It's not that they don't

437
00:24:05.519 --> 00:24:08.720
make mistakes, so they don't miscues, but they are able

438
00:24:08.720 --> 00:24:12.000
to recognize those mistakes more quickly and then repair any

439
00:24:12.079 --> 00:24:13.599
ruptures that result.

440
00:24:15.279 --> 00:24:17.599
Yeah, and this is just so so powerful, and I

441
00:24:17.640 --> 00:24:19.960
think the examples you gave with the behaviors that we

442
00:24:20.000 --> 00:24:23.079
see with leaders help will help both individuals listening to

443
00:24:23.079 --> 00:24:24.799
those for our leaders going oh, well that's me, I

444
00:24:24.880 --> 00:24:27.799
recognize me, and I'm also what I've got which was

445
00:24:27.799 --> 00:24:31.039
so beautiful about your book, Jamie, is your impact your

446
00:24:31.039 --> 00:24:33.960
empathy saying, hey, if you're starting to recognize yourself in

447
00:24:34.039 --> 00:24:38.279
these pages, you might be uncomfortable. Great, that's step one.

448
00:24:38.480 --> 00:24:40.440
You know you're realizing this, and that's I think that's

449
00:24:40.440 --> 00:24:41.200
really powerful.

450
00:24:41.720 --> 00:24:42.079
Yeah.

451
00:24:42.279 --> 00:24:44.240
Yeah, And I mean a lot of this came out

452
00:24:44.759 --> 00:24:48.359
like from my own experience too. Like you, I recognize

453
00:24:48.400 --> 00:24:53.200
that I have avoidant tendencies, especially when I'm overwhelmed and

454
00:24:53.640 --> 00:24:57.000
I'm under stressed. And as I you know, looked honestly

455
00:24:57.079 --> 00:25:01.000
back on my own experiences growing up up, you know,

456
00:25:01.079 --> 00:25:05.079
I could see where where those patterns developed, why I

457
00:25:05.160 --> 00:25:07.200
developed in that way. But then I could also see

458
00:25:07.200 --> 00:25:11.279
how some of that wasn't serving me well anymore. And

459
00:25:11.559 --> 00:25:15.079
I've been sharing the story of actually an administrative assistant

460
00:25:15.079 --> 00:25:17.720
who sat me down and said, Jamie, you have got

461
00:25:17.720 --> 00:25:20.359
to let me do my job because I was so

462
00:25:20.640 --> 00:25:23.480
controlling and I would not.

463
00:25:25.160 --> 00:25:25.640
Give her.

464
00:25:26.160 --> 00:25:29.240
I wouldn't I wouldn't empower her, you know, to do

465
00:25:29.319 --> 00:25:31.599
the work that she was hired to do, because I

466
00:25:31.640 --> 00:25:33.319
wanted to be in control and I thought I was

467
00:25:33.319 --> 00:25:35.160
the only one who could do it. So I have

468
00:25:35.279 --> 00:25:38.200
learned plenty of my own lessons through all of this.

469
00:25:38.440 --> 00:25:40.880
Well, and that's the beautiful thing and right so, I

470
00:25:40.920 --> 00:25:42.319
don't think either one is what we do in the

471
00:25:42.359 --> 00:25:44.160
work that we're doing if we didn't believe that we

472
00:25:44.319 --> 00:25:47.039
humans can grow throughout the course of our lives, and

473
00:25:47.079 --> 00:25:49.279
now neuropusticity tells us that's true.

474
00:25:49.359 --> 00:25:52.079
We can. And so one of the things I.

475
00:25:52.000 --> 00:25:54.720
Love about the title of your book is that it's

476
00:25:55.000 --> 00:25:57.640
the subtitle is discovered the hidden forces that shape your

477
00:25:57.720 --> 00:25:59.839
leadership story and how to change them.

478
00:26:00.160 --> 00:26:02.599
You're not stuck with it. You can grow past this.

479
00:26:02.720 --> 00:26:05.799
And you know, we both have coached people over the years,

480
00:26:06.119 --> 00:26:09.559
and we can see how their style starts to you know,

481
00:26:09.960 --> 00:26:13.240
really negatively impact their home relationship, which comes with them

482
00:26:13.279 --> 00:26:15.440
to work. And when we help and we work with them,

483
00:26:15.519 --> 00:26:18.119
we can recognize how everything in life gets better because

484
00:26:18.160 --> 00:26:21.720
they've learned a better response style. And that's one of

485
00:26:21.799 --> 00:26:23.920
the things you talk about too in your book, is

486
00:26:23.920 --> 00:26:24.359
is how to.

487
00:26:24.279 --> 00:26:25.680
Develop a better response style.

488
00:26:25.720 --> 00:26:28.720
But first, you know, being able to recognize this in

489
00:26:28.759 --> 00:26:31.960
yourself and having somebody that you can work with. And

490
00:26:32.000 --> 00:26:33.680
you do make a very strong point in your book

491
00:26:33.720 --> 00:26:36.000
about you know this, some of these things you're dealing

492
00:26:36.039 --> 00:26:37.960
with might mean that you probably want to work with

493
00:26:38.000 --> 00:26:41.519
a therapist. That's not what this book is about. So distinguishing.

494
00:26:41.640 --> 00:26:43.319
And I didn't know about that fourth style by.

495
00:26:43.240 --> 00:26:47.079
The way, Yeah, yeah, yeah, and yeah, because you know,

496
00:26:47.119 --> 00:26:50.480
obviously I want to maintain the ethical boundaries around like

497
00:26:50.559 --> 00:26:54.240
coaching versus psychotherapy and the types of things we talk about.

498
00:26:54.279 --> 00:26:57.480
So when I'm talking with these themes, you know, with

499
00:26:57.519 --> 00:27:00.640
my coaching clients, you know, I'm not down with them

500
00:27:00.680 --> 00:27:02.720
and doing a family history like tell me all about

501
00:27:02.759 --> 00:27:06.000
your you know, about your family like I would if

502
00:27:06.039 --> 00:27:09.680
I were a therapist. Maybe, But when those patterns of

503
00:27:09.759 --> 00:27:12.240
behavior are kind of coming to the surface and I'm

504
00:27:12.240 --> 00:27:14.200
hearing them talk about some of the things that they're

505
00:27:14.200 --> 00:27:16.839
struggling with. I often want just ask the question, well,

506
00:27:16.839 --> 00:27:19.240
where do you think that comes from? And that's where

507
00:27:19.279 --> 00:27:21.720
we start, and that opens the door and then they

508
00:27:21.799 --> 00:27:24.319
might start to explore I'm not you know, I'm not

509
00:27:24.359 --> 00:27:26.319
really sure. I wonder where it does come from. And

510
00:27:26.319 --> 00:27:28.559
so then we can kind of talk about, as you

511
00:27:28.559 --> 00:27:31.920
look back on your life, what are some experiences that

512
00:27:32.000 --> 00:27:34.960
you've had that might inform how you're showing up in

513
00:27:35.000 --> 00:27:38.640
this way. But then if it gets into where they're

514
00:27:38.839 --> 00:27:43.440
noting or even mentioning to me, you know, again, potentially

515
00:27:43.480 --> 00:27:47.319
significant trauma that they haven't really processed or dealt with,

516
00:27:47.359 --> 00:27:49.440
then that's the point at which as a coach, I'm

517
00:27:49.480 --> 00:27:52.400
going to suggest that they seek out therapy.

518
00:27:53.839 --> 00:27:54.160
Yeah.

519
00:27:54.319 --> 00:27:56.440
Now, just to finish this that a little bit more fully.

520
00:27:56.480 --> 00:27:59.720
You already introduced how a secure leader shows up whether

521
00:27:59.720 --> 00:28:01.519
there be neighbors, But let's just go ahead and expand

522
00:28:01.519 --> 00:28:02.039
on that a little bit.

523
00:28:02.079 --> 00:28:02.839
Since we really did.

524
00:28:03.079 --> 00:28:05.240
You did a great job of really helping to bring

525
00:28:05.279 --> 00:28:07.759
to life the anxious and the avoidant and speaking that

526
00:28:07.839 --> 00:28:10.759
more about how the leader shows shows up as a

527
00:28:10.799 --> 00:28:14.839
secure leader. What kindsic behaviors are we seeing what's what's more,

528
00:28:14.880 --> 00:28:16.400
what's maybe more natural for them.

529
00:28:16.400 --> 00:28:26.839
There, Yeah, secure leaders, I they're able to really they

530
00:28:27.240 --> 00:28:31.880
they recognize their own blind spots. I think that's maybe

531
00:28:31.920 --> 00:28:34.200
they don't see all their blind spots, but they know

532
00:28:34.240 --> 00:28:39.960
they have them. But they're not afraid of those blind spots.

533
00:28:40.079 --> 00:28:44.200
And they see that as just part of the human condition. Right,

534
00:28:44.279 --> 00:28:48.079
we all have blind spots. And so because of that,

535
00:28:48.079 --> 00:28:50.039
that doesn't mean if they have blind spots or they

536
00:28:50.079 --> 00:28:52.720
make mistakes, it doesn't mean that there's something wrong with

537
00:28:52.799 --> 00:28:54.640
me or that I'm not a good person.

538
00:28:54.759 --> 00:28:56.799
They still see themselves as a good person.

539
00:28:57.480 --> 00:29:02.839
And they are then able to hear that feedback when

540
00:29:02.880 --> 00:29:05.640
it comes from their leader or from a peer, or

541
00:29:05.680 --> 00:29:08.200
even maybe from a direct report, and they're not They

542
00:29:08.240 --> 00:29:12.839
can hear that without defensiveness. They can listen with curiosity

543
00:29:13.440 --> 00:29:17.759
and be open to different perspectives. As they're getting feedback

544
00:29:17.759 --> 00:29:20.880
about their own leadership and what they're doing in the workplace,

545
00:29:21.240 --> 00:29:23.599
as well as about just their ideas and the work

546
00:29:23.640 --> 00:29:26.000
that's being done. They're open to that feedback, and they

547
00:29:26.039 --> 00:29:31.160
create those teams where feedback is openly shared and everyone

548
00:29:31.319 --> 00:29:33.519
is sharing their perspective and no one's afraid to make

549
00:29:33.599 --> 00:29:37.240
mistakes because it's psychologically safe, and they know if they

550
00:29:37.279 --> 00:29:40.519
make a mistake, it's okay because the leader is going

551
00:29:40.599 --> 00:29:43.440
to be the first one to admit I made a mistake,

552
00:29:43.880 --> 00:29:46.119
I failed here, and this is what I did, but

553
00:29:46.240 --> 00:29:48.599
this is what I'm learning from it. So they very

554
00:29:48.720 --> 00:29:52.200
quickly admit when they've made mistakes, and so they're truly

555
00:29:52.279 --> 00:29:56.400
collaborative in the way that they go about leading their teams,

556
00:29:56.880 --> 00:30:00.680
and they're not territorial again, because they don't feel threatened

557
00:30:00.799 --> 00:30:04.839
by other people who are excellent, right. I think so

558
00:30:04.960 --> 00:30:11.039
many leaders feel threatened by team members who are really talented,

559
00:30:11.680 --> 00:30:15.400
but then they try to kind of grasp at what

560
00:30:15.440 --> 00:30:19.160
they see is their own territory to maintain their own

561
00:30:19.279 --> 00:30:22.920
sense of worth and purpose and secure. Leaders don't hold

562
00:30:23.000 --> 00:30:26.359
on tightly to those things. They welcome the expertise and

563
00:30:26.400 --> 00:30:30.200
the excellence of other people and see that as helping

564
00:30:30.200 --> 00:30:32.920
all of us get better instead of feeling threatened by it.

565
00:30:33.799 --> 00:30:38.000
And they're really able to in terms of connecting with

566
00:30:38.079 --> 00:30:43.519
other people. They are very attuned in terms of being empathetic,

567
00:30:44.160 --> 00:30:49.799
so they are able to sit with discomfort with ambiguity.

568
00:30:50.279 --> 00:30:54.240
They don't feel threatened by it or need to fix everything.

569
00:30:54.920 --> 00:30:57.519
They're okay sitting with that and holding space even for

570
00:30:57.559 --> 00:31:00.559
their teams to be in those places as well.

571
00:31:02.319 --> 00:31:05.279
Beautifully explained, and that really does help really open up

572
00:31:05.319 --> 00:31:07.920
what does that look like? And what who might and

573
00:31:07.960 --> 00:31:10.559
how might I grow into something more than I am today?

574
00:31:10.599 --> 00:31:12.720
And so I think that's a beautiful beckoning for all

575
00:31:12.759 --> 00:31:16.440
of us. Let's grab our last break. I'm your host,

576
00:31:16.440 --> 00:31:18.359
Doctor Ordie's Cortez. We've been on the air of doctor

577
00:31:18.440 --> 00:31:21.319
Jamie Goff. She's the founder of The Empathic Leader, where

578
00:31:21.319 --> 00:31:24.279
she specializes in helping leaders unlock their full potential through

579
00:31:24.319 --> 00:31:28.359
executive coaching, insightful workshops, and thought provoking keynotes. We've been

580
00:31:28.400 --> 00:31:31.599
talking a bit about and really going into detail into

581
00:31:31.640 --> 00:31:35.480
the attachment science and the styles that we all tend

582
00:31:35.480 --> 00:31:38.599
to adopt, and then talking about how that manifests into

583
00:31:38.680 --> 00:31:41.000
our leadership behaviors and effectiveness.

584
00:31:41.279 --> 00:31:43.039
After the break, we're going to talk about how we

585
00:31:43.039 --> 00:31:43.720
can start.

586
00:31:43.519 --> 00:31:47.799
To rewire or rewrite excuse me, rewrite our leadership stories.

587
00:31:47.880 --> 00:31:48.640
Will be right back.

588
00:32:03.920 --> 00:32:07.480
Doctor Elise Cortes is a management consultant specializing in meaning

589
00:32:07.519 --> 00:32:11.359
and purpose. An inspirational speaker and author, she helps companies

590
00:32:11.440 --> 00:32:15.240
visioneer for greater purpose among stakeholders and develop purpose inspired

591
00:32:15.319 --> 00:32:19.279
leadership and meaning infused cultures that elevate fulfillment, performance, and

592
00:32:19.359 --> 00:32:22.559
commitment within the workforce. To learn more or to invite

593
00:32:22.599 --> 00:32:25.559
Elise to speak to your organization, please visit her at

594
00:32:25.559 --> 00:32:28.839
elisecortes dot com. Let's talk about how to get your

595
00:32:28.880 --> 00:32:37.640
employees working on purpose. This is Working on Purpose with

596
00:32:37.759 --> 00:32:40.960
doctor Elise Cortes. To reach our program today or to

597
00:32:41.039 --> 00:32:44.079
open a conversation with Elise, send an email to Elise

598
00:32:44.400 --> 00:32:50.480
ALISEE at elisecortes dot com. Now back to working on Purpose.

599
00:32:55.759 --> 00:32:57.960
Thankteresting with us, and welcome back to working on Purpose.

600
00:32:58.000 --> 00:33:00.680
I'm your host, doctor Elise Cortes. As you know by now,

601
00:33:00.720 --> 00:33:03.440
this program is dedicated to empowering and inspiring you along

602
00:33:03.480 --> 00:33:05.960
your journey to realize more of your potential. If you

603
00:33:05.960 --> 00:33:07.680
will learn more about how we can work together and

604
00:33:07.759 --> 00:33:10.519
learn how the Gusto Now Academy for leaders and individuals

605
00:33:10.519 --> 00:33:13.119
on various journeys alike. You can make your way to

606
00:33:13.200 --> 00:33:16.319
Gusto dashnow dot com and then go to the training

607
00:33:16.359 --> 00:33:19.079
tab to find the academy. If you are just now

608
00:33:19.160 --> 00:33:21.519
joining us, My guest is doctor Jamie Goff, she's the

609
00:33:21.559 --> 00:33:24.319
author of The Secure Leader, discover the hidden forces that

610
00:33:24.359 --> 00:33:25.920
shape your leadership story.

611
00:33:25.640 --> 00:33:26.720
And how to change them.

612
00:33:27.440 --> 00:33:29.960
So for this next bit here, now, I think we've

613
00:33:29.960 --> 00:33:32.640
helped our listeners and viewers get and some idea of

614
00:33:32.720 --> 00:33:35.720
maybe where they might fall in these different styles and

615
00:33:35.839 --> 00:33:38.039
become a little bit more aware of their behaviors and such.

616
00:33:38.079 --> 00:33:40.039
Now let's talk about how they can start to rewrite

617
00:33:40.039 --> 00:33:42.680
their leadership story. So one of the things that you

618
00:33:42.759 --> 00:33:45.440
talk about in your book is the importance of learning

619
00:33:45.440 --> 00:33:48.880
how to navigate from being reactive to regulate it.

620
00:33:48.960 --> 00:33:50.160
Can we start there?

621
00:33:50.480 --> 00:33:51.440
Yeah? Absolutely.

622
00:33:52.000 --> 00:33:55.119
So when I'm talking about moving from reactive to regulated,

623
00:33:55.319 --> 00:34:01.519
it's really about emotional regulation self regulation, and that begins

624
00:34:01.920 --> 00:34:08.199
with emotional awareness, so becoming attuned to ourselves and our

625
00:34:08.199 --> 00:34:12.159
own emotional experience. I think a lot of people don't

626
00:34:12.199 --> 00:34:16.639
have a very sophisticated emotional vocabulary, so they can be like,

627
00:34:16.679 --> 00:34:20.400
oh I'm mad, sad, glad, but really understanding the nuance

628
00:34:20.679 --> 00:34:25.760
of our emotional experience and being able to slow down

629
00:34:26.719 --> 00:34:34.480
right our amygdala kind of brainstem responses to things that

630
00:34:34.599 --> 00:34:37.800
appear to be threatening in the environment. Being able to

631
00:34:37.920 --> 00:34:41.440
slow down and really analyze what's happening, so that when

632
00:34:41.480 --> 00:34:45.119
we move into action, we're doing something that is proactive

633
00:34:45.679 --> 00:34:48.920
instead of simply reacting to what we're experiencing. And so

634
00:34:48.960 --> 00:34:54.360
it's all about, you know, regulation is all about regulating ourselves,

635
00:34:55.280 --> 00:34:57.320
you know, and that can be through a number of

636
00:34:57.360 --> 00:35:02.639
different exercises, like learning how to regulate yourself physiologically, so

637
00:35:02.800 --> 00:35:06.119
through deep breathing or just pausing.

638
00:35:05.800 --> 00:35:08.320
Before you speak or before you act.

639
00:35:08.079 --> 00:35:11.840
In certain situations so that you can show up in

640
00:35:11.880 --> 00:35:13.119
the way that you want to.

641
00:35:13.360 --> 00:35:15.639
And that takes a lot of practice.

642
00:35:16.599 --> 00:35:19.480
If you are someone who is highly reactive, and you

643
00:35:19.519 --> 00:35:21.519
can react in one of two ways. You can become

644
00:35:21.719 --> 00:35:24.400
hyper aroused, so you can fly off the handle right

645
00:35:24.480 --> 00:35:27.320
and like everyone knows exactly how you're feeling, and you

646
00:35:27.400 --> 00:35:30.199
might be yelling at slamming doors or whatever that might

647
00:35:30.239 --> 00:35:33.920
look like. Or you can become hypo aroused, which is

648
00:35:33.960 --> 00:35:36.599
the other end, which is the silent treatment. I'm going

649
00:35:36.639 --> 00:35:38.760
to withdraw from you. I'm not going to speak from you.

650
00:35:38.840 --> 00:35:42.679
Both are demonstrations of reactivity, and so how do we

651
00:35:43.840 --> 00:35:47.920
manage that more effectively not engage in those reactive behaviors,

652
00:35:48.280 --> 00:35:50.960
but instead make proactive choices about how we want to

653
00:35:51.000 --> 00:35:52.679
show up in relationship to other people.

654
00:35:54.679 --> 00:35:58.880
I also appreciated how you say that emotional suppression really

655
00:35:58.920 --> 00:36:03.079
can hurt us, stuffing our feelings, et cetera. And I

656
00:36:03.159 --> 00:36:07.400
certainly have discovered in my own experience of working with

657
00:36:07.519 --> 00:36:10.599
organizations and their people that so many people have gotten

658
00:36:10.599 --> 00:36:12.440
to a place in life where they've just learned that

659
00:36:12.519 --> 00:36:14.679
they can't share how they feel, and so they just

660
00:36:14.760 --> 00:36:17.400
stuff those feelings. And so of course, part of what

661
00:36:17.440 --> 00:36:19.480
I'm out to do when I'm helped I'm working with

662
00:36:19.559 --> 00:36:23.199
organizations is I'm trying to help open that emotional spectrum

663
00:36:23.199 --> 00:36:26.760
of experience, of understanding and expression in a healthy way,

664
00:36:27.159 --> 00:36:30.800
so people, to your point, have a greater vocabulary for

665
00:36:30.840 --> 00:36:35.000
their emotions and they can experience joint you know. And

666
00:36:35.039 --> 00:36:38.000
then I'm also understanding be able to articulate why something

667
00:36:38.039 --> 00:36:41.320
really bothered them and hurt them. It's just so so important,

668
00:36:41.320 --> 00:36:43.000
And so I really wanted to call that out because

669
00:36:43.039 --> 00:36:46.800
I certainly have found that that emotional suppression piece lives

670
00:36:46.880 --> 00:36:47.599
strongly in.

671
00:36:47.559 --> 00:36:48.800
A lot of organizations.

672
00:36:48.800 --> 00:36:51.519
It's not healthy, Yeah, it absolutely does.

673
00:36:52.199 --> 00:36:56.360
And I think that when we're thinking about attachment styles,

674
00:36:57.199 --> 00:36:57.679
those of.

675
00:36:57.639 --> 00:36:59.599
Us like you and I have talked about we both

676
00:36:59.679 --> 00:37:00.079
kind of.

677
00:37:00.039 --> 00:37:02.400
All in this camp, those of us who do maybe

678
00:37:02.440 --> 00:37:06.119
lean a little bit more toward that avoidant attachment style,

679
00:37:06.679 --> 00:37:13.079
we're particularly we're more likely to engage in emotional suppression,

680
00:37:13.159 --> 00:37:15.079
So we have to be really careful about that. I

681
00:37:15.480 --> 00:37:20.000
have to be attentive to that because that is my default.

682
00:37:21.960 --> 00:37:24.639
I definitely can say in my own journey, I can

683
00:37:24.679 --> 00:37:28.440
go back when I was married this, you know, I

684
00:37:28.440 --> 00:37:32.679
can remember I wasn't nearly as well able to understand

685
00:37:32.719 --> 00:37:35.519
and to express and live in my emotions. And I

686
00:37:35.519 --> 00:37:37.159
have done a lot of work over the years to

687
00:37:37.280 --> 00:37:42.199
help develop that capacity. And it's such a different place

688
00:37:42.239 --> 00:37:45.480
to live in when you develop that capacity. So I

689
00:37:45.679 --> 00:37:47.199
and that's another thing that I really want to echo

690
00:37:47.239 --> 00:37:49.760
on our conversation Jamie to our listeners and viewers, is

691
00:37:50.519 --> 00:37:53.840
this is about the inviting you to grow, right this,

692
00:37:54.039 --> 00:37:56.400
You're not stuck with wherever wherever you are, and like

693
00:37:56.519 --> 00:38:01.320
you can grow, you can change a couragious Yeah. The

694
00:38:01.360 --> 00:38:04.559
second one of the other parts about rewriting writing that

695
00:38:04.599 --> 00:38:06.199
I wanted to talk about was moving.

696
00:38:05.920 --> 00:38:09.280
From disconnection to connection. If we can go there next.

697
00:38:09.360 --> 00:38:13.440
Yeah, you know, I think in order to become more secure,

698
00:38:14.119 --> 00:38:15.679
you can't do that in isolation.

699
00:38:16.639 --> 00:38:18.000
You can't, it's not positable.

700
00:38:19.880 --> 00:38:23.519
You can only become more secure in your style through

701
00:38:23.639 --> 00:38:27.880
relationship with other people. Because to be secure, you have

702
00:38:27.960 --> 00:38:30.760
to feel like others see worth in you and let

703
00:38:30.800 --> 00:38:36.519
you're valued, right, And so being secure requires it's a paradox.

704
00:38:36.559 --> 00:38:40.119
It's this tension between risk and safety.

705
00:38:40.280 --> 00:38:40.480
Right.

706
00:38:40.800 --> 00:38:43.400
We want to feel safe in our relationships, but in

707
00:38:43.519 --> 00:38:45.639
order to really be safe, we have to be willing

708
00:38:45.679 --> 00:38:48.400
to take risks to let people see who we are

709
00:38:48.679 --> 00:38:52.599
and to hear how we're feeling and what we're experienced

710
00:38:52.599 --> 00:38:53.159
to see us be.

711
00:38:53.159 --> 00:38:55.639
Vulnerable, right. And so that's the tension.

712
00:38:56.239 --> 00:38:59.760
And I think even as leaders in the workplace, we

713
00:38:59.840 --> 00:39:06.280
have the opportunity to kind of provide that environment for

714
00:39:06.360 --> 00:39:09.719
our teams where they can experience both safety and risk.

715
00:39:10.599 --> 00:39:13.079
And that's honestly, that excites me, and that feels like

716
00:39:13.159 --> 00:39:17.199
such a privilege as a leader to have the opportunity

717
00:39:17.239 --> 00:39:20.480
to provide that environment. But it takes work to get

718
00:39:20.519 --> 00:39:24.159
skilled in doing that, and so there are some things

719
00:39:24.159 --> 00:39:27.719
that I talk about that will help people to do that.

720
00:39:27.840 --> 00:39:31.840
Leaders do that more effectively. I love that you.

721
00:39:31.880 --> 00:39:34.400
Called out the example from the movie inside Out. I

722
00:39:34.480 --> 00:39:37.440
watched that movie. I was doing some work in India

723
00:39:37.440 --> 00:39:39.199
for one of my clients, and I watched that movie

724
00:39:39.199 --> 00:39:41.639
on their way back. Somebody told me, some young person

725
00:39:41.679 --> 00:39:43.320
told me that I should see it, and I thought, well,

726
00:39:43.480 --> 00:39:44.039
I have time.

727
00:39:44.159 --> 00:39:45.599
I've got all these hours on the plane. I'm going

728
00:39:45.639 --> 00:39:46.039
to watch it.

729
00:39:46.400 --> 00:39:48.760
And I like how you situate it. You know, this

730
00:39:48.800 --> 00:39:50.239
is a for those of you who haven't seen it,

731
00:39:50.280 --> 00:39:53.679
listeners and viewers. It's really a beautiful cartoon movie, right,

732
00:39:54.679 --> 00:39:59.599
and it features different different characters that really are being

733
00:39:59.639 --> 00:40:02.079
an ex brushing up different emotions. And so you have

734
00:40:02.119 --> 00:40:06.079
one character that's joy, another character that's sadness, and you

735
00:40:06.199 --> 00:40:08.960
have this central character named bing Bong that has lost

736
00:40:09.280 --> 00:40:11.960
something important to him, and the Sadness and Joy go

737
00:40:12.199 --> 00:40:14.480
about trying to help him in very different ways. Can

738
00:40:14.519 --> 00:40:19.199
you kind of explicate what happens and how what comes

739
00:40:19.199 --> 00:40:22.800
out of that learning and the inside out of that Yeah.

740
00:40:22.880 --> 00:40:25.280
So yeah, So bing Bong loses something that's important to

741
00:40:25.360 --> 00:40:27.679
him and as a result, he's very you know, he's

742
00:40:27.800 --> 00:40:33.039
very sad and upset and grieving that loss. And so Joy,

743
00:40:33.199 --> 00:40:36.199
the character that represents the emotion of joy, you know,

744
00:40:36.280 --> 00:40:39.679
comes over and she's trying to cheer him up. Immediately right, like,

745
00:40:40.440 --> 00:40:42.639
look at this funny face I'm making bing Bong, or

746
00:40:42.760 --> 00:40:44.559
let me be a tickle monster and try to make

747
00:40:44.599 --> 00:40:48.239
you laugh. And he's just getting deeper into his grief

748
00:40:48.280 --> 00:40:52.400
and sadness as she's doing that, and she can't get

749
00:40:52.440 --> 00:40:54.639
him out of that, right, she's trying to solve the

750
00:40:54.639 --> 00:40:56.960
problemse she's trying to take the grief and the sadness

751
00:40:56.960 --> 00:41:01.639
away from him. The other character, Sadness, who represent you know,

752
00:41:01.719 --> 00:41:06.519
represents the emotion. Sadness comes over and sits down beside

753
00:41:06.519 --> 00:41:10.880
being Bong and just says something along the lines of, oh,

754
00:41:10.960 --> 00:41:15.760
you lost your wagon, you must be really sad, and

755
00:41:15.800 --> 00:41:19.119
then he goes on to share like, yes, I'm so sad.

756
00:41:19.199 --> 00:41:21.119
This is what you know, I was hoping to do

757
00:41:21.239 --> 00:41:25.159
with that thing that I lost, and she, you know again,

758
00:41:25.239 --> 00:41:27.920
continues just to validate him and empathize with him, and

759
00:41:27.920 --> 00:41:31.159
the whole time Joy the other characters over here saying, Sadness,

760
00:41:31.199 --> 00:41:31.719
what are you doing.

761
00:41:31.760 --> 00:41:32.679
You're going to make it worse.

762
00:41:32.760 --> 00:41:35.159
Right, we have this goal, we have this place we

763
00:41:35.199 --> 00:41:36.719
have to be, and we need to get a move on,

764
00:41:37.559 --> 00:41:40.679
and Sadness just sits there, you know with bing Bong,

765
00:41:40.840 --> 00:41:43.880
lets him experience his grief, doesn't try to solve the

766
00:41:43.920 --> 00:41:46.719
problem for him at all, and after a moment or two,

767
00:41:47.360 --> 00:41:52.719
he's like Okay, he cries, and he's like, okay, I'm ready,

768
00:41:52.719 --> 00:41:55.039
now let's go. You know, we need to go this

769
00:41:55.079 --> 00:41:58.960
way to meet our goal. And you know, I've been

770
00:41:59.159 --> 00:42:02.480
showing that in the workshops that I've been doing on

771
00:42:02.519 --> 00:42:04.719
the book too, and I talk with leaders like, what's.

772
00:42:04.559 --> 00:42:05.519
Your reaction to that?

773
00:42:06.239 --> 00:42:08.960
And I think so many times leaders are like, I

774
00:42:08.960 --> 00:42:09.880
don't have time for that.

775
00:42:10.920 --> 00:42:12.280
I don't have time for empathy.

776
00:42:12.639 --> 00:42:15.559
I don't have time to give people the space to

777
00:42:15.599 --> 00:42:18.239
feel their feelings or you know, to kind of let

778
00:42:18.320 --> 00:42:22.400
them sit in that for a moment. And I'm also

779
00:42:22.559 --> 00:42:26.480
my question to them as always, well, but what happens

780
00:42:26.519 --> 00:42:30.800
if you approach it like joy, that person's going to

781
00:42:31.159 --> 00:42:34.679
dig their heels in. They're going to want to stay

782
00:42:34.800 --> 00:42:39.320
in that negativity, that you know, that difficult emotional experience

783
00:42:39.360 --> 00:42:42.360
for a longer time because they don't feel heard, they

784
00:42:42.400 --> 00:42:45.719
don't feel seen, they don't feel validated. And it takes

785
00:42:46.159 --> 00:42:49.920
just a couple moments most of the time to provide

786
00:42:49.960 --> 00:42:53.079
that validation and that empathy and to help someone feel

787
00:42:53.119 --> 00:42:54.199
seen and understood.

788
00:42:54.679 --> 00:42:56.159
And then you know.

789
00:42:56.159 --> 00:42:59.159
They get unstuck, right, They're able to process what's happened

790
00:42:59.239 --> 00:43:01.800
and move on on toward the goal or the metric

791
00:43:01.920 --> 00:43:04.480
or whatever the project is that they're working on in

792
00:43:04.480 --> 00:43:06.599
the workplace. So I think there's just so much power

793
00:43:07.320 --> 00:43:09.599
and yeah, and you have to really be a secure

794
00:43:09.679 --> 00:43:12.360
leader to be able to sit in that and not

795
00:43:12.559 --> 00:43:15.000
feel like you have to fix it.

796
00:43:15.519 --> 00:43:18.480
Yeah. Yeah, so beautiful. And I remember watching it and

797
00:43:18.880 --> 00:43:21.400
Joy says, sadness, how did you do that? And she goes,

798
00:43:21.480 --> 00:43:23.599
I don't know, I just said, and I was with them.

799
00:43:23.679 --> 00:43:26.079
I listened to him. Yeah, And I really want to

800
00:43:26.519 --> 00:43:29.079
quote what you just said about, you know, allowing your

801
00:43:29.119 --> 00:43:31.800
people to feel their emotions. I had doctor Nahasango on

802
00:43:31.840 --> 00:43:35.800
my podcast many years ago, and she describes energy emotions

803
00:43:35.840 --> 00:43:38.639
as energy in motion. They must be moved through our

804
00:43:38.679 --> 00:43:42.400
bodies and they carry valuable data, so you understand what

805
00:43:42.440 --> 00:43:45.360
they're trying to tell us and how they're how they're

806
00:43:45.400 --> 00:43:47.840
helping us experience. And so I really appreciate what you

807
00:43:47.880 --> 00:43:49.440
were saying. And I love what you're doing at the

808
00:43:49.440 --> 00:43:52.880
empathic leader, Jamie. It's so important and to be your championship.

809
00:43:52.920 --> 00:43:56.119
You're a cheerleader for this. I do similar work, So

810
00:43:56.159 --> 00:43:59.000
I'm not quite not on the depth level that you're using,

811
00:43:59.000 --> 00:44:00.519
and not through the tools you're using.

812
00:44:00.599 --> 00:44:02.440
So it's beautiful, Thank you.

813
00:44:03.039 --> 00:44:04.639
So we're coming closer, and I want to get a

814
00:44:04.679 --> 00:44:07.639
couple of these. You talk about a few domains of

815
00:44:07.719 --> 00:44:11.400
integration that I think are I was really compelled. I

816
00:44:11.480 --> 00:44:13.079
took a lot of notes on all of the stuff.

817
00:44:13.119 --> 00:44:14.800
We won't have time to go through even just a

818
00:44:14.840 --> 00:44:16.719
few of them. But first, what do you mean by

819
00:44:17.079 --> 00:44:19.159
domains of integration? Why are they useful? And then we'll

820
00:44:19.159 --> 00:44:20.199
talk about a couple examples.

821
00:44:20.280 --> 00:44:24.599
Yeah, yeah, I think integration. And when I say integration,

822
00:44:24.679 --> 00:44:27.920
I'm really talking about kind of integration of self and

823
00:44:27.960 --> 00:44:31.000
how you understand yourself kind of on a global perspective,

824
00:44:31.440 --> 00:44:33.719
And integration is really an outcome.

825
00:44:34.199 --> 00:44:36.039
So if you work to become.

826
00:44:35.760 --> 00:44:42.719
More regulated emotionally and if you're able to have deep

827
00:44:42.760 --> 00:44:47.679
connections with other people, then integration is often an outcome

828
00:44:47.719 --> 00:44:50.679
of that, and there are different areas of integration. And

829
00:44:50.719 --> 00:44:54.440
so really it's about how do we make sense of

830
00:44:54.519 --> 00:44:59.000
our story and our identity as a whole, taking all

831
00:44:59.079 --> 00:45:03.000
of our experiences into account, not you know, not like

832
00:45:03.840 --> 00:45:07.559
you know, painting things with rainbows and butterflies that weren't good,

833
00:45:08.039 --> 00:45:11.679
but also not allowing those things to hold us back,

834
00:45:12.320 --> 00:45:15.039
but to integrate them in terms of what we've learned

835
00:45:15.159 --> 00:45:17.920
and how we've come to make meaning of the things

836
00:45:17.960 --> 00:45:20.719
that have happened in our lives. And so that, on

837
00:45:20.800 --> 00:45:23.119
a kind of a high level, is what integration is

838
00:45:23.280 --> 00:45:26.559
really about. It's about meaning making and having an integrated

839
00:45:26.880 --> 00:45:27.800
sense of yourself.

840
00:45:29.119 --> 00:45:29.519
Awesome.

841
00:45:29.639 --> 00:45:32.039
Okay, So there's several that you talk about here. I

842
00:45:32.039 --> 00:45:33.719
don't know if there are any favorites that you want

843
00:45:33.760 --> 00:45:34.159
to share.

844
00:45:35.119 --> 00:45:37.360
Yeah, I think you know.

845
00:45:37.480 --> 00:45:40.360
One of the areas is we talk about brain integration

846
00:45:40.559 --> 00:45:45.119
specifically and so kind of bilaterally in your brain. So

847
00:45:45.280 --> 00:45:49.039
right brain, left brain. And you know, it's not accurate

848
00:45:49.119 --> 00:45:51.760
to say, oh, I'm right brained or oh I'm left brained.

849
00:45:52.039 --> 00:45:53.440
Science is really both sides.

850
00:45:53.519 --> 00:45:56.239
Yeah, right, science has really bunked that.

851
00:45:56.519 --> 00:46:00.840
Right. But people who are have a care attachment and

852
00:46:00.880 --> 00:46:04.119
who are more integrated, they're right and left hemispheres of

853
00:46:04.159 --> 00:46:08.559
their brain work together better, right they you know, so

854
00:46:08.920 --> 00:46:13.800
they're more attuned, you know, to each other. So you know,

855
00:46:13.840 --> 00:46:17.760
the right brain as it takes in sensory information, and

856
00:46:17.840 --> 00:46:22.119
you know, really kind of is the emotional antenna, if

857
00:46:22.159 --> 00:46:23.800
you will, of what's going on, and then the left

858
00:46:23.840 --> 00:46:28.639
brain around meaning making and language and kind of linear thinking,

859
00:46:29.079 --> 00:46:31.639
helps to make sense of what the right brain is experiencing.

860
00:46:31.679 --> 00:46:34.519
And so they're working very well together. And so you

861
00:46:34.519 --> 00:46:37.400
can see how that also relates to regulation, right because

862
00:46:37.440 --> 00:46:41.079
if you're you know, if you're have that bilateral integration,

863
00:46:41.159 --> 00:46:44.519
you're going to be more regulated emotionally as well. And

864
00:46:44.559 --> 00:46:47.320
you can also think about brain integration as being top

865
00:46:47.480 --> 00:46:50.559
down or bottom up, so like from your brain stem

866
00:46:50.719 --> 00:46:54.760
up to your prefrontal cortex. That again, instead of your

867
00:46:54.800 --> 00:46:57.039
like brain stem controlling what you do all the time

868
00:46:57.119 --> 00:47:00.119
or you're amygdala, you can slow down that process and

869
00:47:00.239 --> 00:47:03.079
integrate it with what your prefrontal cortex is able to

870
00:47:03.079 --> 00:47:06.400
do in terms of sense making and more kind of

871
00:47:06.880 --> 00:47:08.079
rational thought.

872
00:47:09.360 --> 00:47:11.880
Amazing, and there's so much in there to listeners of yours,

873
00:47:11.960 --> 00:47:13.639
several others that she talks about as well.

874
00:47:13.639 --> 00:47:14.519
They are really intriguing.

875
00:47:14.920 --> 00:47:18.039
I do want to finish the show with our final

876
00:47:18.599 --> 00:47:21.159
little bit of hope about maintaining our new leadership story

877
00:47:21.199 --> 00:47:24.360
since we've rewritten it, we've discovered it and we've rewritten it.

878
00:47:24.719 --> 00:47:28.519
And you talk about doctor Barbara fre Frederickson's work and

879
00:47:27.880 --> 00:47:32.440
the centrality of positive psychology and positive emotions. Can you

880
00:47:32.519 --> 00:47:34.840
kind of bring us home here, say in about a minute,

881
00:47:34.880 --> 00:47:37.559
with how we can maintain our new leadership story.

882
00:47:37.639 --> 00:47:37.920
Yeah.

883
00:47:38.119 --> 00:47:45.119
Essentially, positive emotion is incredibly powerful, and you can create

884
00:47:47.559 --> 00:47:51.880
opportunities to experience positive emotion. And so positive emotion is

885
00:47:51.960 --> 00:47:54.880
protective in terms of our health and our well being.

886
00:47:55.320 --> 00:47:59.039
It's also beneficial in a team or in a business context,

887
00:47:59.079 --> 00:48:01.840
and there's some research around that. And so you can

888
00:48:02.079 --> 00:48:06.960
generate experiences where you have positive emotion. There are certain

889
00:48:06.960 --> 00:48:09.519
things that you can do build into your everyday rituals

890
00:48:09.559 --> 00:48:12.360
and routines so that you're building that into your life,

891
00:48:12.480 --> 00:48:16.320
and the more positive emotion you experience, that helps you

892
00:48:16.400 --> 00:48:20.199
to live into a more secure attachment story. So I

893
00:48:20.239 --> 00:48:22.840
think just you know, talking about the power of positive

894
00:48:22.840 --> 00:48:25.360
emotion and really finding ways.

895
00:48:25.440 --> 00:48:27.800
To cultivate that, not waiting.

896
00:48:27.679 --> 00:48:30.000
You know, I think sometimes we think we have to

897
00:48:30.000 --> 00:48:34.320
sit back and wait to experience emotion, and that's not

898
00:48:34.360 --> 00:48:37.159
necessarily true. When it comes to positive emotion. We can

899
00:48:37.239 --> 00:48:38.119
cultivate it.

900
00:48:38.039 --> 00:48:38.880
And go looking forward.

901
00:48:38.920 --> 00:48:43.239
So really sure that's gratitude and joy, gratitude, those things.

902
00:48:43.320 --> 00:48:47.079
Yeah, savoring the moment you know, yeah, yeah.

903
00:48:47.119 --> 00:48:49.480
I love how you heard about savoring. So here we are.

904
00:48:49.519 --> 00:48:51.119
We come to the enother show already. It goes by

905
00:48:51.199 --> 00:48:54.559
so fast. Don't say Goff. It is a delight to

906
00:48:54.639 --> 00:48:56.639
know you, to count it as a friend, as a colleague.

907
00:48:57.000 --> 00:48:58.840
Thank you for writing this beautiful book, for coming on

908
00:48:58.880 --> 00:49:00.000
working and purpose to talk about it.

909
00:49:00.159 --> 00:49:01.639
You are a gem.

910
00:49:01.800 --> 00:49:03.039
Thank you, Thank you, Lise.

911
00:49:04.039 --> 00:49:05.800
Listeners and viewers, you are going to want to learn

912
00:49:05.840 --> 00:49:07.960
more about doctor Jamie Goff, the work she does at

913
00:49:07.960 --> 00:49:10.840
The Empathic Leader, helping leaders unlock your full potential, and

914
00:49:10.960 --> 00:49:13.719
her new book, The Secure Leader. You can start by

915
00:49:13.800 --> 00:49:16.800
visiting her website. It's doctor Jamie Gooff dot com. Let

916
00:49:16.880 --> 00:49:20.440
me spell that for you, so it's d R ja

917
00:49:20.760 --> 00:49:26.320
im g o f F doctor Jamie dot com, Doctor

918
00:49:26.360 --> 00:49:28.719
Jamiegoff dot com. You can also find her on LinkedIn

919
00:49:28.760 --> 00:49:31.199
to by the way, pretty easily. Last week you missed

920
00:49:31.199 --> 00:49:33.719
the live show, you can always catch it via recorded podcast.

921
00:49:33.800 --> 00:49:36.039
We were on here with James talking about his new

922
00:49:36.039 --> 00:49:39.840
book The Archetype Effect, Unlocking six types of motivation at work.

923
00:49:40.159 --> 00:49:43.119
He helped us understand how differently people are motivated and

924
00:49:43.159 --> 00:49:46.400
the opportunity organizations have to examine their reward systems to

925
00:49:46.519 --> 00:49:49.920
encourage their full team to bring their best. Next week

926
00:49:49.960 --> 00:49:52.360
will be on the air with Roderick Jefferson talking about

927
00:49:52.360 --> 00:49:55.639
his spectacular journey as a stroke survivor and building his

928
00:49:55.719 --> 00:49:58.360
strength further as a speaker and a coach. See you then,

929
00:49:58.440 --> 00:50:00.519
and together, let's lean in and learn how to create

930
00:50:00.559 --> 00:50:03.679
destination workplaces where people thrive while doing business in a

931
00:50:03.719 --> 00:50:04.800
way that betters the world.

932
00:50:05.119 --> 00:50:06.239
Let's Work on Purpose.

933
00:50:10.039 --> 00:50:12.679
We hope you've enjoyed this week's program. Be sure to

934
00:50:12.719 --> 00:50:16.400
tune into Working on Purpose featuring your host, doctor Elise Cortes,

935
00:50:16.519 --> 00:50:19.800
each week on W four CY. Together, we'll create a

936
00:50:19.840 --> 00:50:24.480
world where business operates conscientiously. Leadership inspires and passion performance,

937
00:50:24.559 --> 00:50:27.320
and employees are fulfilled in work that provides the meaning

938
00:50:27.360 --> 00:50:31.159
and purpose they crave. See you there, Let's work on Purpose.